No Reality Outside Our Own Existence

fresco,

I embark on these discussions for personal enjoyment.

Masking a personal insult as a question is transparent.

..............................

Terry, I too participate in order to avoid ossification and to learn from some very astute minds. Not to flatter you, but I'm glad you do participate because you are one of the best contributors. Let me just state once more time, that you actually DO experience non-dualism, that is BEFORE you (inevitably and necessarily) impose abstract categories onto your immediate and concrete experiences in order to render them "meaningful." Zen buddhists and other "mystics" continually remind us that "enlightenment" (i.e., freedom from self-imposed existential illusions) is to be found mainly, if not only, in what you call the "ordinary pursuits" of life. There is no clear line between true mysticism and ordinary life or between enlightened and ordinary mind. Yet there is a difference, which is not deep and mysterious, only very subtle. I think you used the wrong metaphor: the enlightened one is not "born again." S/he is merely "awakened", or knows s/he is "sleeping".

Terry and Joanne



You might consider trying Vipassona meditation.

It is set up as a ten day silent retreat, usually involving about 25-30 people. They serve vegan/vegetarian food, and you share a room with one other person, unless you get lucky and have your own. Once you arrive and get settled in there is no talking for the whole ten days. Most of each day, about 10 hours, is spent meditating for which instruction is given. (no previous meditation experience is required).

Getting up at 4am is easy when you go to bed at nine,

There are centers all over the world.

Here's the site:

http://www.dhamma.org/

And it's by donation only, which means you don't pay if you don't have it, and even if you do, you pay after the retreat is over.

....even this elementary daily exercise might be interesting.

Sit upright in a chair (so that you cannot nod off). try to quiet the circling thoughts and open the five senses in turn asking "What is IT seeing", What is IT hearing" etc....try not to categorize or trigger associated thought trains......try to be simultaneously aware of all five senses for a few minutes i.e "the now".

You will almost certainly find it difficult to maintain concentration (which is sometimes called falling asleep) but the after-effects (which for me are like having had the senses "washed") are often significant.

Craven

And anyone can reject a theory.

Keeping in mind that the outcome of evaluating an understanding of a theory is a function of said understanding and of the evaluation process, in which the "evaluation" is prior to conclusions of validity or non-invalidity.

In discussing nondualism as theory, if one does not consider its validity as possible, then one should say from the outset, "I understand the theory of nondualism and reject it out right as having any validity…………end of discussion.

Since nondualism can be understood on more then one level rejecting it from a purely intellectual understanding may be an indication of influence and attachments to other theories, i.e. dualism then anything else.

[edited]

T, I checked out the link and there is a course starting close by on the 28th of May. There is only one thing - no talking for 10 days, yikes I have trouble not talking for 10 seconds when I am around people. But then that could be a problem or not. My talking of gift of gab is a gift and a burden. I will look into it more since I have my animals to be taken care of. Certainly I have been looking for something for the last six months where I could get a break from myself.

CDK - I feel your emotional issues as they are coming through your writing. While I respect your opinion it seems as though you are saying that others are doing what you are actually doing. Trying to force people to agree with you (just my opinion of course after reading through most of the threads). Often in the course of my life I have found that what I accused others of was in fact what I was doing. And I have observed that other often do the same thing. Say to another what they think the other person is doing to them when in reality it is the very thing they are doing to that person.

CDK I hope you will not take offense but in this instance I think your intellect is interfering with your comprehension. You know how much I care about you and I would hope you might consider that we, most of us, here have lived so many more years than you there are some things we just know. Information that can only be attained through life experience. Of all interacting here I know the least. But I would like to know more. And your comments cause me to feel angst. And I do not believe you mean to create this feeling within me but you are.

Not that I agree with everything that is said and I certainly am way into myself as opposed to the opposite and I think I can relate to you as I was as you are when I was your age.

Remember my initial signature when I first came to A2k? If you feel enlightened do the laundry; which I attributed to Thomas Merton from his book No Man I An Island. Well a number of folks attacked me for misattributing the quote. However, it was finally settled that I did read it in the Thomas Merton book and was decided by others I could use it as a Thomas Merton quote. All the debate was for naught and I removed it so as to not create problems or issues for myself.

However, I think you might want to consider what it means. If you ever think you are enlightened, do the laundry.

Finally, I know you have already have a mom but please understand that I am not telling you to not post as you wish. But perhaps take some time to think about what is being said instead of giving into your own need to express your self and expect everyone to accept your point of view.

I understand the theory of nondualism and I do not consider its validity as possible except insofar as it constitutes a metaphysical system.


Or it may simply indicate that nondualism fails on its own terms.

Joanne,

I have never seen such unmitigated and unwarranted patronizing on these boards.

Age has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue.

I will avoid responding to you in kind, I am trying to be nice.

Edit: I respectfully request that you do not address me in the future.

twyvel, I've never said that I did not consider nondualism's validity as possible. Truth be told, I used to subscribe to nondualism.

It's been very interesting discussing this guys. I'm going to excuse myself.

I'm saddened by certain individuals speaking unkindly about me elsewhere and using other medioums to bad mouth me. Their actions have been hurtful and this discussion isn't worth that kind of aggravation.

Craven, I am surprised that you mistake Joanne's attempt at tact to be patronization. And what could people have been saying about you in "other mediums"? And could these "other mediums" include PMs? I hope not, since that would suggest that you have been evesdropping (sp?) on PMs? I trust you will appreciate my lack of tact.

By the way, Craven, I agree that age has nothing to do with this topic. But it often does have to do with one's quality of interaction. At your age I would not have had the maturity to practice the patience I am showing now.

JL,

I don't think it was intentionally patronizing but that's ultimately what it is. And no, I am not talking about PMs. And no, I do not think it was tactful to imply that either.

Now I really should get going, that type of accusation makes it hard to keep my "be nice" promise to myself.

I am normally not as caustic as I am with you. But very frankly you are inviting every bit of it. I regret it because, as I said to you before, I do appreciate what your efforts in a2K provide. Please don't be offended by the nice words.

Blimey JL - I know Joanne meant it as tact, but it drips with patronization even to my jaundiced, matronizing, elderly eye!!! I have kept silent through this interesting debate - but I think it most unfair to attack Craven for finding that post very untoward.

Sorry, Joanne - I know you meant well.

May I also say, as someone who knows Craven reasonably well, through many VERY heated arguments, that it is most erroneous of you to attack his integrity as you have, in relation to the PMs. You would not make such a suggestion if you knew him better - and I think it unwarranted of you to make such an accusation.

Pardon me for sticking my nose in....but this is unfair.

OK, I didn't come here to argue, rather, I wanted to join the original thread. My wife and older daugther exhibit something I can only call clairvoyance. They always know when something has happened to a family member before it is discussed. They always know who is calling on the phone, even when they aren't expecting a call. There are other things too. Does anyone else here know someone like that? Would you consider this experiencing reality outside of your own existance?

JL,

I'm trying my level best to not be caustic. And have been doing very well (if I may say so myself) for a few days now.

I'm not returning the barbs and avoiding even confrontational language.

That I can't get any reciprocal reduction in animosity is frustrating. Since the 29th I don't think I've been caustic once. And I've been waiting patiently for the responses to me to reflect this.

But it seems the fustration of a protracted disagreement, even without the incivility is frustrating to others as well due to it's very nature.

Even though I've decided not to challenge nondualism directly and explore it through questions the negativity remains, now I'm being labelled obdurate and trying to ram my opinion down other's throats.

Even taking into consideration personal bias I think those are very unjust characterizations. I have no desire to convince anyone of anything, especially so in this thread because I don't see it as remotely likely.

There is an element of repetition that is making the charge of "mantra" and "obdurate" raise its head but if you look you'll see that the cyclic nature of the discussion is not of my initiation.

I'm not repeating that I feel the criteria for understanding is unfairly determined for my health and well being, I say it because I'm repeatedly told the "understanding" line in a way that I feel justifies the claim about its criteria.

I'm not being caustic with you JL. Thing is, no matter what I do you seem to think I'm "inviting it". It's a lose-lose situation. Even when I make a great effort to write slower, nicer and more colloquially I can't seem to catch a break.

I've no desire for personal animosities and that seems to be the inevitable result here.

All I can say is what I've already said:

1) I'm sorry for offending you.

2) You've offended me, in turn, but I don't hold grudges and think you're a stout fella anyway.

3) I am making an earnest effort to be nice in effect as much as intent.

4) It's not working. I am uncertain what would....

Craven de Kere wrote


Deb wrote

The above statements are not patronizing and this is fairness and integrity, I do not think so and so now we are all offended and the thread is ruined.

People may become - and do - offended on many threads.

Whether this one is "ruined" or not is up to whomever may wish to participate/continue participating.