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What is a survival trait? exploding the myth.

 
 
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:37 pm
Evolutionists talk about traits as if they were real, independent things, like individuals. But if traits were independent things then they could be swapped between creatures. The polar bear's wide paws would be a survival trait for bacteria.

Nonsense talked about evolutionary survival traits shows a preoccupation of science for intrigue. Science does this by increasing the number of real, physical things in the world.

For example, evolutionists think that a creature isn't just its total physical form - they think that it also has physical traits, thus making two things real where there is only one thing.

Another piece of popular misleading nonsense is the "evolutionary survival trait" . The word "survival" is used in two different ways, one legitimate, one nonsense. Survival traits help a creature to survive during its life-time. Evolutionary survival traits supposedly help a species to survive, but species do not survive when they evolve - they become extinct.
 
rosborne979
 
  4  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 07:47 pm
@JohnJonesCardiff,
JohnJonesCardiff wrote:
The polar bear's wide paws would be a survival trait for bacteria.

Could you please explain that a little better. Because even if I give you a fair chance and I assume you are making sense, and I try to read between to the lines to figure out what the hell you're talking about, I still can't do it.
mikeymojo
 
  4  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 07:54 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

JohnJonesCardiff wrote:
The polar bear's wide paws would be a survival trait for bacteria.

Could you please explain that a little better. Because even if I give you a fair chance and I assume you are making sense, and I try to read between to the lines to figure out what the hell you're talking about, I still can't do it.


No kidding. He can't be talking about the bacteria that have survived for millions of years without polar bear paws. Right?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 08:02 pm
@JohnJonesCardiff,
That is a question no one has answered before...

Without wide paws, how do bacteria walk on snow or catch fish?

The liberal press doesn't seem even try to adress this, do they?

Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 08:13 pm
@maxdancona,
The Liberal Press would only address it if:

1) It benefited Obama
2) It made them feel good about helping "the poor."
3) It was a way to criticize Christianity
4) It led to criticism of Republicans
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 04:15 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
Another pseudo-controversial thread ? Laughing
Obviously what we segment as "things" are human constructs but their construction serves our survival trait which involves prediction and control of what we call "the world".
The myth is not about "evolution" or "survival traits". The myth is that "things" are independent of the needs of "thingers".
Your philosophical education has gaping holes in it, Read up on autopoiesis (Maturana) if you want an alternative angle on evolution.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 05:27 am
The OP has a penchant for displaying his ignorance. The survival of individuals is meaningless in evolutionary science. Any individual which survives is by definition fit--fitness is determined by survival. The significant determinant is whether or not the individual has breeding opportunity. This is why the concept of "survival of the fittest" (a term coined by Spencer) refers only to species. Archaea are the oldest organisms on earth--they have survived since the dawn of life, they have not gone extinct. That is despite the near extinction of anaerobic organisms about two billion years ago. Certainly some species are extinguished--but they evolve along the way. Some mammoth developed long, woolly coats and therefore survived in periglacial regions--mammoth are extinct now, but evolution in mammoth can be seen while both mammoth and woolly mammoth survived, within the life-time of the human race.

All this clown ever does is make unsubstantiated statements, and when challenged, just makes the statements over and over again.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 05:45 am
@Setanta,


ITS NOT THAT DIFFICULT < PLEASE READ THIS JOHNNY

Quote:
Since 1996 it’s been known that, according to mitochondrial-DNA-based phylogenies, polar bears (Ursus maritimus) are actually nested within brown bears (Ursus arctos) rather than being a separate lineage. In other words, the mtDNA of some populations of brown bears—in particular, those from the Admiralty, Baranof, and Chichagof (ABC) islands of southwest Alaska—is more closely related to the mtDNA of polar bears than to the mtDNA of other brown bears.

This makes brown bears “paraphyletic” with respect to polar bears. That is, the brown bear species U. arctos does not include all of the descendants of its most recent common ancestor, since some of these descendants are placed within polar bears.

This conclusion was just confirmed by complete mtDNA sequencing of the bears. A new study in PNAS by Lindqvist et al. used “fossil DNA” from a subfossil polar bear jaw to look at the evolution of polar bears vis-à-vis their relatives. The jaw, from Norway, was estimated at about 130,000-110,000 years old, and was sufficiently well preserved that a complete polar bear mtDNA genome could be extracted and sequenced.

This sequence was compared to mtDNA sequences from two living individual polar bears and four living brown bears. The phylogeny based on this sequence is given below. The main result is that this jawbone came from a polar bear living about the time (estimated at 152,000 years ago) when the ancestors of modern polar bears diverged from those of brown bears. The authors also did stable carbon-isotope analysis of a tooth from the subfossil’s jaw, and found that the isotope values for carbon-13 were close to that of modern polar bears, suggesting to the authors that the individual engaged in “marine feeding,” i.e., ate seals.

The figure below also confirms the results of earlier phylogenies, using smaller segments of mtDNA, showing that brown bears—at least these three brown bears—from the ABC islands are more closely related to polar bears than to brown bears from other places. Again, brown bears seem to be paraphyletic.



Fig. 1 (Fig. 3 of Lindqvist et al.) A. Maximum clade probability tree of bear mtDNA using BEAST anaysis. B. Phylogenetic network of complete mtDNA genomes. Note that brown bears from the “Adm” (Admiralty) and “Baranof” populations are more closely related to polar bears (including the subfossil specimen shown in red) than to other brown bears.

The authors conclude:


The stable isotope data, phylogenetic analysis, and the geological and molecular age estimates of the Poolepynten specimen indicate that ancient polar bears adapted extremely rapidly both morphologically and physiologically to their current and unique ecology within only 10–30 ky following their split from a brown bear precursor and, subsequently, within the course of ~100 ky, spread to the full perimeter of the polar basin. As such, the polar bear is an excellent example of evolutionary opportunism within a widespread mammalian lineage (33). Moreover, the extreme proximity of the Poolepynten specimen to the polar bear ancestor provides a unique case of a morphologically and molecularly validated fossil link between living mammal species.

Now this is pretty interesting, but I don’t find it terribly exciting. I think its acceptance in PNAS is based more on the novelty of using subfossil DNA than on any new and pentrating insight into bear evolution. But I want to discuss the “paraphyly” of brown bears highlighted here and in previous work.

If this DNA-based tree really reflected the species tree, then the ancestry of the groups shows true “species paraphyly“: that is, some living populations of brown bears are more closely related to living polar bears than to other living populations of brown bears. And if that were the case, then hardcore cladists, who employ a species concept based only on “monophyly,” would not recognize the two species “brown bears” and “polar bears.” They would have to lump them together into a single species of bear. We would no longer have polar bears.

Of course, cladists aren’t rushing to do this, even though the paraphyly has been known for 14 years. Why not? Well, a lot of cladists aren’t interested in “alpha taxonomy,” the practice of naming species. But anyone who’d lump polar with brown bears would also be derided. That’s because, regardless of the genetic ancestry of these groups, the two species now seem to be independent evolutionary units, presumably isolated from each other by reproductive isolating barriers such as habitat and mate preference.

But if this is true “species paraphyly,” how could it have come about? How could one or a few populations of species X be more genetically related to members of species Y than to members of its own named species? Well, it’s possible that the ancestor of all polar bears came from only one geographic population of brown bears (that population represented by the ABC localities), and so the ancestry of polar bears reflects this origin. If gene flow were sufficiently restricted among all populations of brown bears, then the species phylogeny (which, after all, is only a formalization of evolutionary history) could reflect this localized origin.

This probably happens quite commonly, as it cannot be all that rare for a widespread species to bud off a new descendant from only one or a few of its populations. (Migration of a few individuals to an island or a distant new habitat, for example, must involve such a process.) Usually, however, gene flow among members of that big, interbreeding species would soon efface this history.

But all this presupposes that the mtDNA phyogeny gives us the true species phylogeny—the evolutionary history of the populations themselves rather than just that of mtDNA segments. Does the “gene tree” of mtDNA—which, since all the DNA in a mitochondrion is physically linked, behaves as if it were a single gene—reflect the “species tree” of bears?

It may not. We’ve known for a while that hybridization between species can occasionally move DNA between them, even after they’re formed, if reproductive barriers aren’t complete. And, for reasons we don’t understand, mitochondrial DNA (or chloroplast DNA) seems to move between species more easily than does nuclear DNA. If the ABC populations of brown bears exchanged, some time in the past, mitochondria with polar bears, though rare hybridization (and this is known to occur between the species), then sequencing mtDNA might tell us, erroneously, that for all genes, ABC populations are more closely related to polar bears than to other brown bears. And, importantly, such hybridization, which might have occurred after the polar and brown bear lineages diverged, would give us an erroneous idea of when the lineages diverged.

Such hybridization isn’t rare. There are lots of cases—Allen Orr and I list many of them in the appendix of our book Speciation (Sinauer, 2004)—in which mitochondrial-DNA based trees give a false diagnosis of paraphyly, while nuclear DNA, consisting of lots of independent genes and not just one, shows a nonparaphyletic tree. This is true for oak trees, birds, fruit flies, and many other species. Sometimes, as in the Drosophila species I work on, movement of mtDNA between different species makes them seem genetically identical, while independent nuclear genes show well-demarcated species. Hybridization between species can make it very risky to use just one gene to reconstruct their history.

Yet somehow people continue to accept mtDNA trees as equivalent to species trees. To be sure, Lindqvist et al. formally recognize that hybridization between polar and brown bears could produce an illusory species paraphyly, although they, like earlier authors, don’t give the possibility much weight (the PNAS paper gives the caveat,”Although mtDNA capture cannot be excluded to have happened between ABC bears and polar bears, these estimates nevertheless affirm with strong support a very recent divergence of polar bears from brown bears.”) But it’s time for biologists to stop calling species paraphyletic when what they mean is that genes (e.g., mtDNA) are paraphyletic.

To determine if brown bears are really paraphyletic with respect to polar bears, and thus whether cladists would designate (brown + polar) bears as a single (very variable!) species, we’d have to look at a lot more genes—and genes from the nucleus. If the consensus phylogeny from all these genes still shows the paraphyly, then systematists can worry about nomenclature. (But even if there were true species paraphyly, I’d still vote on retaining the two named species of bears, since I adhere to the “biological species concept” that is based not on phylogenies but the presence of reproductive barriers.)

For now, brown and polar bears are phylogenetically safe. But I wish that systematists would worry more about the problem of equating gene trees with species trees, and would stop relying solely on mitochondrial DNA when they can also use nuclear DNA. The more genes the better!

_____________

Lindqvist, C. et al. 2010. Complete mitochondrial genome of a Pleistocene jawbone unveils the origin of polar bear. Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. USA 107:5053-5057,

Shields, G. F., D. Adams, G. Garner, M. Labelle, J. Pietsch, M. Ramsay, C. Schwartz, K. Titus, and S. Williamson. 2000. Phylogeography of mitochondrial DNA variation in brown bears and polar bears. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 15:319-326.

Talbot, S. L., and G. F. Shields. 1996. Phylogeography of brown bears (Ursus arctos) of Alaska and paraphyly within the Ursidae. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 5:477-494.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 07:53 am
@Setanta,
Actually ALL evolution begins with the individual. that's why we have many examples in the fossil record of what looks like a very wide variability in a single species at the same time.

This was actually an argument between Dawkins and Gould that was, in my opinion, much for some late night PBS show. Its obvious that one single individual first carries the "winning gene" (BUT also, Gould says that the "Gene" has nothing to do with the initiation of the adaptive change ). Sometime in the past I started a thread about evolution without mutation .

We can argue this point but lets not lose site of the fact that its ALL science points based upon fact and evidence and not some religious bullshit that many of our correspondents bring to the table.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 08:13 am
@farmerman,
My point was that "survival of the fittest" refers to the species, not the individual. An individual is fit if it survives. That does not mean, however, that the individual will pass on it's genetic code. Successful reproduction is the only assurance of that.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 09:25 am
@Setanta,
that is correct.
My point was that the fossil record, as a record of evolution, is mostly a record of dead ends. Many of which are multiple styles of the same bit of problem solving at about the same time . That's why we have maybe 5 or 6 different body plans of mammoths or proboscidians in the Pliocene.All of whom had a unique solution to an increasing "Savannanization", and all failed in relatively short times . Were these merely displaying variability among individuals ? or were they indeed Bauplans that made it into a unique population and then all got wiped out due to some minor (or major) change in environment

(+/- 2 million years)

Yet, we have several widely separate species all converging on "Sabre toothness" at different times and all supremely adapted to one niche
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 09:38 am
All very interesting, but the troll seems to have done a runner as usual !
0 Replies
 
G H
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 12:32 pm
@JohnJonesCardiff,
JohnJonesCardiff wrote:
Evolutionary survival traits supposedly help a species to survive, but species do not survive when they evolve - they become extinct.

No, a new species emerging from another doesn't mean that the latter is destined to become extinct. Especially if they genetically diverged in the first place as the result of migrating away from the rest, becoming a geographically separated population that adapted to different environmental circumstances. Even in cases where the newbies' success does cause the gradual disappearance of their ancestral provenance, a pocket of the older group can sometimes escape via its own manner of haphazard isolation. As lemurs did on Madagascar.
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 01:40 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

JohnJonesCardiff wrote:
The polar bear's wide paws would be a survival trait for bacteria.

Could you please explain that a little better. Because even if I give you a fair chance and I assume you are making sense, and I try to read between to the lines to figure out what the hell you're talking about, I still can't do it.


Here it is, expressed as premises and conclusion:

1. Survival traits help creatures to survive.
2. A polar bear paw is an example of a survival trait.
3. Bacteria are creatures.
Therefore, the polar bear paw would help bacteria to survive.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 01:43 pm
Man, your attempts at logic are even more hilarious than the way you butcher science.

Armies kill people.
Therefore, the Salvation Army kills people.

Dude . . . you crack me up!
Germlat
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 02:03 pm
@JohnJonesCardiff,
If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bicycle ...how's that for logic?!
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 02:07 pm
@JohnJonesCardiff,
JohnJonesCardiff wrote:

1. Survival traits help creatures to survive.
2. A polar bear paw is an example of a survival trait.
3. Bacteria are creatures.
Therefore, the polar bear paw would help bacteria to survive.

John, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming you're trying to make some off-handed or facetious point (which escapes me), and this is the best you can give me? You're losing ground buddy.

Care to try again or should we just write you off as a complete lunatic.
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 02:14 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

JohnJonesCardiff wrote:

1. Survival traits help creatures to survive.
2. A polar bear paw is an example of a survival trait.
3. Bacteria are creatures.
Therefore, the polar bear paw would help bacteria to survive.

John, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming you're trying to make some off-handed or facetious point (which escapes me), and this is the best you can give me? You're losing ground buddy.

Care to try again or should we just write you off as a complete lunatic.


Yes, of course. If I make the letters bigger people might be able to read it. But I think a repetition will do. Here it is again. Note the lack of facetiousness and absence of subtle word games in this prose-like structure that mimics the Greek philosophical style but which is still popular today:
1. Survival traits help creatures to survive.
2. A polar bear paw is an example of a survival trait.
3. Bacteria are creatures.
Therefore, the polar bear paw would help bacteria to survive.
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 02:17 pm
@JohnJonesCardiff,
Sure everyone understands the birds and bees..and pollen. I don't understand your point?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Dec, 2013 02:28 pm
@JohnJonesCardiff,
JohnJonesCardiff wrote:

1. Survival traits help creatures to survive.
2. A polar bear paw is an example of a survival trait.
3. Bacteria are creatures.
Therefore, the polar bear paw would help bacteria to survive.

Let's try this...
1. Correction: Survival traits help creatures within a certain population to survive... you continue from there and tell me what new conclusion you draw.
 

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