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The atheist argument - explanation and advice.

 
 
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:05 am
The atheist position is either
1) absurd (not believing in a spatial and temporal God) or
2) unsound (not believing in an experience of God).

In 1) the atheist takes an absurd stance by conspiring with superstition in arguing against a God that lives in the universe somewhere. That is an absurd stance.

In 2) the atheist either denies the primacy of experience, or denies a particular experience. The former denial is illogical: experience (uninterpreted) is exactly what it is. The latter denial is circumstantial, and so it is unsound. It depends on people having no experience of a God, as they report it.

Regarding the latter, circumstance does not favor the atheist's position. Experiences of God, or of an autonomous agent of varying descriptions are common. Even atheists have such experiences.

This is my advice. Atheists needs to redefine their argument. However, apart from the two positions I have listed above it seems that there are no other options available.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:14 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
I have never challenged the idea of Unity nor the idea of a Set of all Sets...I just don't ascribe it any particular ordering or Logos that fits in a specific philosophy of being. I don't intend to make a description of "God" beyond those two initial assertions and neither should you.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:31 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
The really neat thing about atheism is that an atheist has no need for silly explanations like you are trying to make. If you want to be an intellect in support of your beliefs, you need more practice and a better argument . Your arguments are silly and rather pathetic.




contrex
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:38 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Your arguments are silly and rather pathetic.


He knows they are. That's why he posts them. He is an attention-seeking troll.
0 Replies
 
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:47 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

The really neat thing about atheism is that an atheist has no need for silly explanations like you are trying to make. If you want to be an intellect in support of your beliefs, you need more practice and a better argument . Your arguments are silly and rather pathetic.







You are quite right in offering this third option, which I hadn't considered - just say "no God" and make sure that you do not explain it or think any more about it. Otherwise, by thinking about it, you are left with either an absurdity or an unsound argument.
0 Replies
 
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I have never challenged the idea of Unity nor the idea of a Set of all Sets...I just don't ascribe it any particular ordering or Logos that fits in a specific philosophy of being. I don't intend to make a description of "God" beyond those two initial assertions and neither should you.


That's an elaborate way of saying that the idea of a God is neither superstitious, nor a matter of experience, but simply a paradox. Though, you must distinguish between paradoxes (like set of sets, square circles, God), otherwise people will think you are talking about geometry or logic.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:58 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
There is nothing paradoxical in set of sets per se...the incompleteness problem was not what I was aiming at.

If you want a subjective statement from me I give you one:
"God" is not a person nor an agent !
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:03 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

There is nothing paradoxical in set of sets per se...the incompleteness problem was not what I was aiming at.

If you want a subjective statement from me I give you one:
"God" is not a person nor an agent !


(..the set of sets led to a paradox that ruined Frege's whole day, but that's another matter)

When you say ""God" is not a person nor an agent" , then that falls foul of my point 2). That point describes how one cannot deny experience, and that an experience of an autonomy, like a personal autonomy, is common.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:11 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
That's where you get it wrong...experience is an ongoing unfolding process while "God" is eternal.
God is the reason there is unfolding experiencing, the unmoved mover.

God does not evolve, it incorporates evolution.

God does not grow out of itself. There is nothing beyond it towards where to move.

God does not need to think, it questions nothing. Rather is the reason incomplete beings think and make questions.

God has Truth is essentially motionless, it opposes the illusion of motion.

The Logos in God is unchangeable as God is the all history of Logos made thing.

You want me to keep up teaching you Metaphysics and Theology at a top level or do you had enough ?
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:18 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

That's where you get it wrong...experience is an ongoing unfolding process while "God" is eternal.
God is the reason there is unfolding experiencing, the unmoved mover.

God does not evolve, it incorporates evolution.

God does not grow out of itself. There is nothing beyond it towards where to move.

God does not need to think, it questions nothing. Rather is the reason incomplete beings think and make questions.

God has Truth is essentially motionless, it opposes the illusion of motion.

The Logos in God is unchangeable as God is the all history of Logos made thing.

You want me to keep up teaching you Metaphysics and Theology at a top level or do you had enough ?



Although you addressed your remark to me I can't see a particular moment there where I am being tackled.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:29 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
That is your problem not mine.
You projected a vision of God from a human perspective of existenz.
I am not interested in debating godly "like" creatures but God.
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:57 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

That is your problem not mine.
You projected a vision of God from a human perspective of existenz.
I am not interested in debating godly "like" creatures but God.


Personal experience cannot be invalidated by facts. The fact that I see blue is not invalidated by the fact that I cannot distinguish between blue and green.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 07:17 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
No one is trying to invalidate personnel experience.
As far as I am concerned you can experience whatever fantasy you like. Fantasies are real experiences, in the sense they are REAL fantasies.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 07:37 am
This clown keeps offering straw man arguments. He doesn't seem to understand that there really is no such thing as "atheism." Atheists are only atheists by the description of theists, who want to emphasize that these are people who don't buy their big sky daddy claims. There is no "-ism" because it's not a belief, it is a lack of belief. Certainly there are thoes who say that there is no god. Although they are described as atheists, and are in a certain respect, they wold be more accurately described as anti-theists.

I don't know if there is a god, and i don't care. I don't believe, and if theists want to call me names because of that, it's no skin off my nose. This clown has no argument, and has to make sh*t up to have something to argue against.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 08:08 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

No one is trying to invalidate personnel experience.


What has working in an HR department got to do with anything?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 10:16 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

That's where you get it wrong...experience is an ongoing unfolding process while "God" is eternal.
God is the reason there is unfolding experiencing, the unmoved mover.

God does not evolve, it incorporates evolution.

God does not grow out of itself. There is nothing beyond it towards where to move.

God does not need to think, it questions nothing. Rather is the reason incomplete beings think and make questions.

God has Truth is essentially motionless, it opposes the illusion of motion.

The Logos in God is unchangeable as God is the all history of Logos made thing.

You want me to keep up teaching you Metaphysics and Theology at a top level or do you had enough ?


Well said Fil. I may not agree with it all, probably because our definitions of "God" are different, but I liked that way that sounded Smile
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 10:23 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
JohnJonesCardiff wrote:
The atheist position is either
1) absurd (not believing in a spatial and temporal God) or
2) unsound (not believing in an experience of God).

You are an atheist too John.

You (and almost all theists) are atheistic with respect to every other religion on the planet (of which there are thousands) except the one you happened to have been exposed to early in life. You recognize many religions as concepts but you don't give any credence to them and you don't spend much time thinking about how they relate to your world view. And you lose no sleep at night worrying about how they have condemned you to eternal hell for not accepting them. You simply dismiss them. That is how pure atheists feel about all religions.

Pure atheists are just atheistic about one more religion that you are.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 11:47 am
@JohnJonesCardiff,
Next ! Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 04:41 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

No one is trying to invalidate personnel experience.
As far as I am concerned you can experience whatever fantasy you like. Fantasies are real experiences, in the sense they are REAL fantasies.


A fantasy is a story that incorporates archetypal and other images. While the story particulars can be made up the archetypes cannot.
0 Replies
 
JohnJonesCardiff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 04:41 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

This clown keeps offering straw man arguments. He doesn't seem to understand that there really is no such thing as "atheism." Atheists are only atheists by the description of theists, who want to emphasize that these are people who don't buy their big sky daddy claims. There is no "-ism" because it's not a belief, it is a lack of belief. Certainly there are thoes who say that there is no god. Although they are described as atheists, and are in a certain respect, they wold be more accurately described as anti-theists.

I don't know if there is a god, and i don't care. I don't believe, and if theists want to call me names because of that, it's no skin off my nose. This clown has no argument, and has to make sh*t up to have something to argue against.


Who's calling names?
 

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