Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Dec, 2013 11:23 pm
@parados,
This number is insane. They must count Dog 6 or 7 time for plural, verb and other slang uses, Hot Dog, Top Dog etc. Add all the regionalismes, the Blog and LOL and IPad of our brave new digital world... The pettycoat and the seppuku. All the words they use in crosswords and at Scrabble Etc. etc.

Anyway, here is what the OED has to say about French influence on the English language:

In Middle English this picture changes radically. If we look at the vocabulary of Middle English as a whole, the evidence of dictionaries suggests that the number of words borrowed from French and/or Latin outstrips the number of words surviving from Old English by quite a margin. However, words surviving from Old English (as well as a few of the Scandinavian borrowings, especially they) continue to top the high frequency lists (as indeed mostly remains the case even in modern-day English).

The formulation ‘French and/or Latin’ is an important one in this period. Often we can tell that a word has come from French rather than Latin very clearly because of differences of word form: for instance, English peace is clearly a borrowing from Anglo-Norman and Old French pais, not from Latin pac-, pāx. Some other pretty clear examples are marble, mercy, prison, palfrey, to pay, poor, and rule. It is often much more difficult to be certain that a Middle English word has come solely from Latin and not partly also from French; this is because, in addition to the words it inherited from Latin (which typically showed centuries of change in word form), French also borrowed extensively from Latin (often re-borrowing words which already existed in a distinct form). Some typical examples are animal, imagination, to inform, patient, perfection, profession, religion, remedy.

Given these factors, any figures for the relative proportions of French and Latin borrowings in the Middle English period have to be hedged about with many provisos. However, the broad picture is clear. In Middle English, borrowing from French is at least as frequent as borrowing from Latin, and probably rather more frequent.
http://public.oed.com/aspects-of-english/english-in-time/middle-english-an-overview/
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 01:59 am
I am, by no means, a linguist but I note the following:

PEACE:

Latin: Pax
English: Peace
French: Paix
Old French: Pais
Spanish: Paz
Italian: Pace
Spanish: Paz
Italian: Pace
Old Saxon: Friou
Danish: Fred
German: Frieden
Irish: Síochána
Welsh Heddwch

While the Norman Invasion of England clearly had a large influence on English (at least in terms of the word "Peace"), considering the undeniably major influence of Latin on French, it's difficult to understand how it can be considered that French has had a greater influence on English than Latin.

Forgive me, but I have not been following this debate in great detail and may have missed it, but have you pointed out how non-Latin antecedents of French (Old or Modern) have influenced English, and how they differ from the languages of Northern Europe?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 03:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
... it's difficult to understand how it can be considered that French has had a greater influence on English than Latin.

Forgive me, but I have not been following this debate in great detail and may have missed it, but have you pointed out how non-Latin antecedents of French (Old or Modern) have influenced English, and how they differ from the languages of Northern Europe?
From 1066 onwards, there were two languages side by side in Britain (England):
- the Old English, born out of the dialects of the Angles, Jutes, and Saxons (with Celtic, Latin, and Old Norse influences) used as the everyday language,
- "French", the language of the court, administration, culture ... .

Centuries later, both these languages became Middle English.
giftstantra
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 04:19 am
this is really good event and festival... in christmas we are enjoying with family and friends sharing gifts to each other send gifts to loving one this is really good and every year we will enjoying Christmas and Gifts
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 04:29 am
The Nordic language does not excist any more in Normandie, except in place names.
You have Bourquebu = Borgeby.
Yvetot comes from South Sweden Ivetofta
We have the word bäck which means brook.
The brothers from Kallebäck - their farm was named Calidus beccus. This means in latin the warm brook. When the French took over the farm got the French name Caudebec. In Swedish kall is cold.
Bol is also a nordic ending
Garth, sometimes spelled gard or gar simply means gård = farm or fenced in area.
Tofta is excist in more than hundred places and is written tot like in Yvetot. Les Totes.
Samuel Champlain who sailed to Canada 1608 landed in an area he called Quebec. This is also a genuin Scandinaian name Kvillebäck.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 04:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
From 1066 onwards, there were two languages side by side in Britain (England):
- the Old English, born out of the dialects of the Angles, Jutes, and Saxons (with Celtic, Latin, and Old Norse influences) used as the everyday language,
- "French", the language of the court, administration, culture ... .

Centuries later, both these languages became Middle English.


The English dialects were so varied, that for some people they were like a foreign tongue. As this tale attributed to Caxton points out, both the Middle and Modern English versions.

Quote:
For we Englysshe men ben borne under the domynacyon of the mone, whiche is never stedfaste but ever waverynge, wexynge one season and waneth and dyscreaseth another season. And that comyn Englysshe that is spoken in one shyre varyeth from a-nother, in so moche that in my dayes happened that certayn marchauntes were in a ship in Tamyse for to have sayled over the see into Zelande, and, for lacke of wynde, thei taryed atte Forlond, and wente to lande for to refreshe them. And one of theym named Sheffelde, a mercer, cam in to an hows and axed for mete and specyally he axyd after eggys, and the goode wyf answerde that she could speke no Frenshe. And the marchaunt was angry, for he also coude speke no Frenshe, but wolde have hadde egges; and she understode hym not. And thenne at laste a-nother sayd that he wolde have eyren. Then the good wyf sayd that she understod hym wel. Loo, what sholde a man in thyse dayes now wryte, egges, or eyren? Certaynly it is hard to playse every man, by-cause of dyversite and chaunge of langage.

For we Englishmen are born under the domination of the moon, which is never steadfast but ever wavering, waxing one season and waning and decreasing another season. And that common English that is spoken in one shire varies from another, so that in my days it happened that certain merchants were in a ship on the Thames to sail over the sea to Zealand, and for lack of wind, they tarried at Foreland, and went to land to refresh themselves. And one of them named Sheffelde, a mercer, came to a house and asked for food, and especially he asked for egges, and the good woman answered that she could speak no French. And the merchant was angry, for he also could speak no French, but wanted to have egges, and she did not understand him. And then at last another said that he wanted eyren. Then the good woman said that she understood him well. Lo, what should a man in these days now write, egges or eyren? Certainly it is hard to please every man, because of diversity and change of language.


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Caxton
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 05:51 am
Since the 1890s, when Thomas Malory, the author of Le Morte d'Arthur, was identified as Thomas Malory of Warwickshire, scholars have adopted that scapegrace, sometimes criminal as the author. In the 1930s, however, a complete manuscript of the Death of Arthur was found at the Winchester College. Although people continue to assume that the Thomas Malory of Warwickshire was the author, the Winchester manuscript is written in the English of the North, the English of Yorkshire. There was a Thomas Malory from Yorkshire who fits the bill as the author, including having been held a prisoner by the Duc d'Armangac, who had a large library of Arthurian lais. The significance of the Winchester manuscript is that the English of Yorkshire was then so markedly different than that of Warwickshire. Alas, people still believe that the vicious bastard from Warwickshire was the author.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 05:58 am
I was in London and got into conversation with a mother and her grown up son,
They both spoke cockney, which I do not understand. Half of what the son said I could figure out and about 1/4 of what the mother said.
But with facial expressions and OH interesting and oh noo or whatever I thought would fit the conversation went on. I politely asked questions about London and still not knowing what they told me which I did not mind.
At the end of half an hour they both said "You as a Scandinavian speak and understand English better than many Brits.
Glad they did not know the truth.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 06:09 am
@saab,
Actually, there are quite a few more.
Think of kanne à lait /from "kanna"), bec ("bekkur"), mare ("marr").
Crabe is of Viking origin as well as quite a few maritime and naval construction words in French.

Places: Routot (Rolf's farm), Elbeuf (wells of cottages), Ecaquelon (the thieves' woods), Catelon (woods of livestock [I think]) ...

The cyclist Jacques Anquetil's ancestors had the Viking name "Askettil" (cauldron of the gods) ...

(I'm in the regional archive/museum in St. Lo next month. And if I don't forget it, I'll copy some sources there.)
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 06:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That would be very nice. Then I´ll print out the pages and add them to my book about the Nordic Frenchmen - seven dukes in Normandie 850-1066-
A book which stood in my bookcase for years as the title did not interest me.
Started to read it and it is so fun - and the drawings too.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 06:41 am
@saab,
I'm there for a different reason. But I had had an examination at university related to the Bayeux tapestry ages ago ... (Thus, I've never seen it in original, but have been to/passed Bayeux dozen times Wink )
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:20 am
@saab,
You should have got to Newcastle. Scandinavians have a lot less trouble with Geordie.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:25 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
you should have got to Newcastle.
At schyeul, yeors ago, the assistant english teachor cam from thor ...
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:27 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Was he a canny lad?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:28 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks for that Walt. If you hadn't quoted me I wouldn't have seen my error.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:30 am
@izzythepush,
Just before I married my foreign husband we went through the church ceremony, so he would know what was going to happen.
I told him, that after the ceremony the priest will crucify us.
Long pause and he said "I do not know if I want to get married in Sweden"
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:35 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
This number is insane. They must count Dog 6 or 7 time for plural, verb and other slang uses, Hot Dog, Top Dog etc.

Leave it to you to just make stuff up again.


Plurals are NOT counted as separate words. Different definitions do not create a new word.

It seems you have made up your mind that something is true and you are willing to ignore or discount any evidence that clearly disputes your claim including making up things that aren't true to support your claim that isn't true.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:38 am
@izzythepush,
We had had some canny evenings/nights with him ... much to the dislike of the regular teachers. Wink
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 08:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
They did a funny show about Krampus on GRIMM the other night.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Dec, 2013 09:21 am
@farmerman,
Hold it right there. It doesn't air in the UK until February.
0 Replies
 
 

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