He's going to end by asking how "something" could come from nothing. The answer is that just because it's complicated, that's no reason to think it's magic.
(Pssst, as we expected, you were right)
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neologist
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Sun 24 Nov, 2013 03:39 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
The relationship between energy, which essentially has no mass, and matter which has mass and is essentially organized energy, is complex, fascinating, and not yet completely understood. But no matter how awed we may be over its properties and related phenomena, in itself, it is not sufficient proof of a creator. Surely we can believe these are components necessary to our belief; but that is not the same.
More is need for proof.
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Romeo Fabulini
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Sun 24 Nov, 2013 03:46 pm
Even some scientists say stuff like - "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist, I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics."- Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics), 1994 The Physics of Immortality. New York, Doubleday, preface.
Some scientists are idiots. Luckily most of them aren't or we wouldn't have the modern civilization that we do. And luckily (so we don't face-palm ourselves black and blue) most of them don't make stupid claims like Tipler does.
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Brandon9000
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Sun 24 Nov, 2013 04:18 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Even some scientists say stuff like - "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist, I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics."- Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics), 1994 The Physics of Immortality. New York, Doubleday, preface.
You seem to rely a lot of testimonial to prove your points. "It's true because someone said so" is an invalid argument. "It must be magic because I don't understand it" is a baloney argument. As for the origin of matter, some of this actually is understood in Physics. Have you studied it?
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rosborne979
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Sun 24 Nov, 2013 04:23 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Even some scientists say stuff like - ...Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics), 1994 The Physics of Immortality. New York, Doubleday, preface.
Frank Tipler's colleagues wrote:
George Ellis, writing in the journal Nature, described Tipler's book on the Omega Point as "a masterpiece of pseudoscience ... the product of a fertile and creative imagination unhampered by the normal constraints of scientific and philosophical discipline", and Michael Shermer devoted a chapter of Why People Believe Weird Things to enumerating what he thought to be flaws in Tipler's thesis. Physicist Sean M. Carroll thought Tipler's early work was constructive but that now he has become a "crackpot". And in a review of Tipler's The Physics of Christianity, Lawrence Krauss described the book as the most "extreme example of uncritical and unsubstantiated arguments put into print by an intelligent professional scientist".
This poor idiot damaged his own credibility and caused his own salary to drop.
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neologist
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Sun 24 Nov, 2013 05:09 pm
Just because you can't find epistemological certainty does not mean God does not exist. It just mans this may not be the right thread.
If you read Hebrews 11:1-3, you will find Paul describing faith as . . .the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen. . . That doesn't rule out the test tube guys. It just sets them in a relative position.
Yes I know, Dawkins certainly strikes me as one.
Incidentally I got College of Preceptors exam passes in General and Advanced Science in 1963, I bin around..
PS- that pro-God Tipler quote is just one by a number of scientists, here's another- "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."-Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): The Universe: Past and Present Reflections. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics: 20:16
Please try again. I would be truly interested if you could really come up with a rational perspective in which a "God" could be understood by science.
I would be interested if you could come up with a perspective in which 'GOD' could be understood by humans. It's always amazed me that man can conceive of a being that can create the universe and then define that being in human terms.
Yes I know, Dawkins certainly strikes me as one.
Incidentally I got College of Preceptors exam passes in General and Advanced Science in 1963, I bin around..
PS- that pro-God Tipler quote is just one by a number of scientists, here's another- "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."-Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): The Universe: Past and Present Reflections. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics: 20:16
Can you solve a physics problem involving a block sliding down an inclined plane?
I would be interested if you could come up with a perspective in which 'GOD' could be understood by humans. It's always amazed me that man can conceive of a being that can create the universe and then define that being in human terms.
Agreed. An equally preposterous undertaking.
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Romeo Fabulini
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Sun 24 Nov, 2013 11:08 pm
Quote:
Brandon said: Can you solve a physics problem involving a block sliding down an inclined plane?
Nah mate i'd much rather do something useful like splitting the atom..
As for describing God, the bible offers some useful clues-
Jesus said- "Nobody knows the Father except the Son" (Luke 10:22), thereby hinting that our mortal minds can never understand his nature.
Jesus said- "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24) which defines God as an invisible spirit which we must tune our minds into to get on the same wavelength.
God said- "Am I only a nearby God? Can you hide? I fill heaven and earth"...."I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End" (Jer 23:23, Revelation 21:6), indicating he exists at every point in space and time, like Star Wars "The Force", which we have to log onto to get a download of power.
Brandon said: Can you solve a physics problem involving a block sliding down an inclined plane?
Nah mate i'd much rather do something useful like splitting the atom..
Lame.
Romeo shoots, he misses. Time runs out, Game Over, Brandon wins. Romeo responds with a smoke screen and bangs his drum really loudly, but nobody gives a ****.
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Romeo Fabulini
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Mon 25 Nov, 2013 11:17 am
I was expelled from school for refusing to play their silly maths games about "blocks sliding down planes" and algebra and geometry and stuff because i regarded it as a complete waste of time, I was a tough little sonofabitch even in those days!
I regarded my brain as a hard drive and didn't want to clutter it up with junk.
Jesus said:- "The world wants you to dance to its tune" (Matt 11:16/17)
We holy men don't dance..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Romeo: he shoots, he scores!
All that thinking! So much effort! And then to be expelled!
I feel for you, Romeo!
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Romeo Fabulini
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Mon 25 Nov, 2013 11:42 am
Quote:
Neologist said: All that thinking! So much effort! And then to be expelled!
I feel for you, Romeo!
Ah, but I deliberately engineered my expulsion by persistent truanting and "not trying" during lessons. It took me 2 years of arm-wrestling with the school but they eventually gave in and out I went..
Hey, you were once kicked out of the Jehovah's Witnesses mate, good for you, it shows you had some fire in your belly when you were younger..
It's a pity you later went soft and went crawling back to them (sigh)
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Brandon9000
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Mon 25 Nov, 2013 05:16 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
I was expelled from school for refusing to play their silly maths games about "blocks sliding down planes" and algebra and geometry and stuff because i regarded it as a complete waste of time, I was a tough little sonofabitch even in those days!
I regarded my brain as a hard drive and didn't want to clutter it up with junk...
Fine, but stop telling us your theories of cosmology, because if you can't do high school physics, you probably can't do cosmology.
It looks like you're paraphrasing a portion of that passage. It certainly isn't directly from either of the two most recent revisions (HA, God's perfectly understandable Word needing revision!) of the New World Translation.
A relevant portion, I thought.
Also, I don't think it unreasonable for translators to graduate from 17th century to 21st century English.
But if you would prefer the full verse from the King James translation: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
