32
   

Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:11 am
@Herald,
You continue to ignore all the scientific evidence of the Big Bang with your denials, and think you have any basis for your total ignorance. Ever study logic?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:27 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
Explain one stochastic thing, one fact
     No, I won't do anything of the kind, unless you explain in details your 95% belief in the Big Bang 'theory', and in particular: ... what evidence do you & your 95% supporters of the Big Bang 'theory' have about the Singularity that it may possess the capacity to hold a temperature 'ten trillion trillion times hotter than the core of the Sun'?


I've already told you several times that I don't have any beliefs, much less a "95% belief" in BBT. The fact that you keep repeating this mistake that you've already been corrected on suggests that you have some sort of cognitive defect. I would not belittle a person with a legitimate, medical learning disorder, but you continue to present yourself as someone without one. If you have a disability, please say so, and I will back off. But as long as you persist in pretending to be science-literate, I will continue to hand your ass to you with both factual and logical support.

That you continue to press your god-of-the-gaps fallacy, despite being repeatedly corrected on it also, further suggests a cognitive deficit. Or at least, an affective disorder. Again, if you have a legitimate disability, please state as much.

The score is still 4:0. If you want that to change, produce some evidence for your "personal 45% god/ILF of-the-gaps."

It wouldn't hurt if you were to clarify whether you are asserting a 45% a) b) c) d); 30% this; 25% that, compared to your later assertion of a 50:50 probability. Not that either of them makes a modicum of sense, mind y ou.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 01:09 pm
@Herald,
Quote:
No, I am asking about a popular claim of the Big Bang 'theory' that is presented to be truth of the last resort

Really? Care to show me where it is popular to claim that photons existed in the singularity?
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You continue to ignore all the scientific evidence of the Big Bang with your denials
     The failure of your kidneys as a result of plugging them up with synthetic proteins and toxins of any kind, and also due to f'cking up of the small blood vessels as a result of metabolic deviations caused by various reasons is not evidence for any Big Bang 'theory' ever happening and 'science' ever explaining it and ever supporting it ... and I am not a cesspit to pour out your emotional pigwash to infinity there. If you have any evidence about any Big Bang, which evidence is not correlated to any failure of any kidneys - you may present it.
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:24 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Really? Care to show me where it is popular to claim that photons existed in the singularity?
Quote:
Mathematical singularity, a point at which a given mathematical object is not defined or not "well-behaved", for example infinite or not differentiable.
...
Gravitational singularity, a point in spacetime in which gravitational forces cause matter to have an infinite density and zero volume
     Can you name all the particles that might fit into 'infinite gravitational field', 'infinite density' & 'zero volume'? ... just don't ask me what 'zero volume' is supposed to mean.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:25 pm
@Herald,
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/ewacky.gif
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:32 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/ewacky.gif
     If you are not professional shrink, certified to assign diagnoses for mental deviations to opponents in discussions on the net - you are exactly the opposite case - a patient presenting himself as s shrink. BTW you don't need half of the code to make that 'scientific' reference.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:38 pm
http://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7433899/debunk-how-to

Quote:
There's nothing worse than arguing with someone who simply refuses to listen to reason. You can throw all the facts at them you want, and they'll simply dig in their heels deeper.

Over the past decade, psychologists have been studying why so many people do this. As it turns out, our brains have glitches that can make it difficult to remember that wrong facts are wrong. And trying to debunk misinformation can often backfire and entrench that misinformation stronger. The problem is even worse for emotionally charged political topics — like vaccines and global warming.

So how can you actually change someone's mind? I spoke to Stephan Lewandowsky, a psychologist at the University of Bristol and co-author of The Debunking Handbook, to find out:

Susannah Locke: There’s evidence that when people stick with wrong facts, it isn't just stubbornness — but actually some sort of brain glitch. Why is it so difficult to change people’s minds?

Stephan Lewandowsky: It’s not an easy task to update people’s memories. That’s a very clear result that even happens with completely innocuous items. It's a fundamental problem for our cognitive apparatus to update what’s in our head.

What people have suggested — and what I think is going on — is that what people remember is the information, and then they attach a tag, "Oh no it’s not." And the problem is that often this tag can be forgotten. So you remember the misinformation, but not the fact that it’s false.

Now, one of the ways to get around that is to tell people not just that something is false, but tell them what’s true. Alternative information makes it much easier to update your memory.

"YOU REMEMBER THE MISINFORMATION, BUT NOT THE FACT THAT IT’S FALSE"

FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:51 pm
http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/astrobiology-made-case-god

Quote:
No, Astrobiology Has Not Made the Case for God
BY LAWRENCE KRAUSS


Recently, the Wall Street Journal published a piece with the surprising title “Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God.” At least it was surprising to me, because I hadn’t heard the news. The piece argued that new scientific evidence bolsters the claim that the appearance of life in the universe requires a miracle, and it received almost four hundred thousand Facebook shares and likes.

The author of the piece, Eric Metaxas, is not himself a scientist. Rather, he’s a writer and a TV host, and the article was a not-so-thinly-veiled attempt to resurrect the notion of intelligent design, which gives religious arguments the veneer of science—this time in a cosmological context. Life exists only on Earth and has not been found elsewhere. Moreover, the conditions that caused life to appear here are miraculous. So doesn’t that mean we must have come from a miracle at the hand of God? “Doesn’t assuming that an intelligence created these perfect conditions require far less faith than believing that a life-sustaining Earth just happened to beat the inconceivable odds to come into being?” Metaxas writes.
...
Metaxas believes that our increased understanding of our evolutionary history implies that the origin of life on Earth is increasingly inexplicable. But the evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.

Let’s start with the first point raised in the Journal piece, which is that the more we have learned about our own evolutionary history on Earth, the more we appreciate the many different factors that may have been important in allowing that evolution. For example, we know that had Jupiter, with its massive gravity, not existed, asteroids and comets would have bombarded Earth throughout its history, disrupting the stable evolutionary development of multicellular organisms. Moreover, we know that if our sun were not in the outer part of our galaxy, life as it exists would have been impossible, both because of the impact of harmful cosmic radiation and because of gravitational perturbations that might easily have disrupted stable planetary orbits. The moon formed during a collision involving the nascent Earth, giving the planet the tilt that allows for seasonal variations and tides. Earth exists in the habitable zone where liquid water is possible. Liquid water was possible only on early Earth because of the high concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

By considering each of these many factors and imagining the probability of each separately, one can imagine that the combination is statistically very unlikely, or impossible. “Today there are more than 200 known parameters necessary for a planet to support life—every single one of which must be perfectly met, or the whole thing falls apart,” Metaxas writes. “The odds against life in the universe are simply astonishing.”

Such a claim is fraught with statistical perils, however. The first is a familiar mistake of elaborating all the factors responsible for some specific event and calculating all the probabilities as if they were independent. In order for me to be writing this piece at this precise instant on this airplane, having done all the things I’ve done today, consider all the factors that had to be “just right”: I had to find myself in San Francisco, among all the cities in the world; the sequence of stoplights that my taxi had to traverse had to be just right, in order to get me to the airport when I did; the airport security screener had to experience a similar set of coincidences in order to be there when I needed her; same goes for the pilot. It would be easy for me to derive a set of probabilities that, when multiplied together, would produce a number so small that it would be statistically impossible for me to be here now writing.

This approach, of course, involves many fallacies. It is clear that many routes could have led to the same result. Similarly, when we consider the evolution of life on Earth, we have to ask what factors could have been different and still allowed for intelligent life. Consider a wild example, involving the asteroid that hit Earth sixty-five million years ago, wiping out the dinosaurs and a host of other species, and probably allowing an evolutionary niche for mammals to begin to flourish. This was a bad thing for life in general, but a good thing for us. Had that not happened, however, maybe giant intelligent reptiles would be arguing about the existence of God today.

An even more severe problem in Metaxas’s argument is the assumption of randomness, namely that physical processes do not naturally drive a system toward a certain state. This is the most common error among those who argue that, given the complexity of life on Earth, evolution is as implausible as a tornado ravaging a junkyard and producing a 747. The latter event is, indeed, essentially statistically impossible. However, we now understand that the process of natural selection implies that evolution is anything but random. Is it a miracle that the planet produced animals as complex as, and yet as different from, humans, dolphins, and cicadas, each so well “designed” for its own habitat? No. Natural selection drives systems in a specific direction, and the remarkable diversity of species on Earth today, each evolved for evolutionary success in a different environment, is one result.

Non-randomness is now understood to have a likely impact on the first appearance of life. For example, new insights into geophysical and chemical processes in extreme environments suggest that early Earth naturally favored the production of relatively large organic molecules. Moreover, we have continued to find in space the more sophisticated components associated with the evolution of life on Earth. The build-up of these complex precursors of life is, therefore, far from purely random. Furthermore, a recent interesting, if speculative, proposal suggests that, when driven by an external source of energy, matter will rearrange itself to dissipate this energy most efficiently. Living systems allow greater dissipation, which means that the laws of physics might suggest that life is, in some sense, inevitable.

...
Another point raised in the Journal piece involves what appears to Metaxas as the impossible fine tuning of the constants of nature in order for us to exist. As Metaxas puts it:

Astrophysicists now know that the values of the four fundamental forces—gravity, the electromagnetic force, and the “strong” and “weak” nuclear forces—were determined less than one millionth of a second after the big bang. Alter any one value and the universe could not exist. For instance, if the ratio between the nuclear strong force and the electromagnetic force had been off by the tiniest fraction of the tiniest fraction—by even one part in 100,000,000,000,000,000—then no stars could have ever formed at all. Feel free to gulp.
It is true that a small change in the strength of the four known forces (but nowhere near as small as Metaxas argues) would imply that stable protons and neutrons, the basis of atomic nuclei, might not exist. (The universe, however, would—a rather large error in the Metaxas piece.) This is old news and, while it’s an interesting fact, it certainly does not require a deity.

Once again, it likely confuses cause and effect. The constants of the universe indeed allow the existence of life as we know it. However, it is much more likely that life is tuned to the universe rather than the other way around.
We survive on Earth in part because Earth’s gravity keeps us from floating off. But the strength of gravity selects a planet like Earth, among the variety of planets, to be habitable for life forms like us. Reversing the sense of cause and effect in this statement, as Metaxas does in cosmology, is like saying that it’s a miracle that everyone’s legs are exactly long enough to reach the ground.

In fact, one of the most severe apparent fine tunings often referred to by creationists like Metaxas is that of the so-called cosmological constant, the energy of empty space that has recently been discovered to be causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate over time. ...

Is this a clear example of design? Of course not. If it were zero, which would be “natural” from a theoretical perspective, the universe would in fact be more hospitable to life. If the cosmological constant were different, perhaps vastly different kinds of life might have arisen. Moreover, arguing that God exists because many cosmic mysteries remain is intellectually lazy in the extreme. The more we understand the universe, the more remarkable it appears to be. Exploring how this remarkable diversity can arise by potentially simple laws has been one of the most successful, and intellectually beautiful, efforts in human history.

...
Or, as Carl Sagan often repeated, extraordinary events require extraordinary evidence. Surely the God hypothesis—that some invisible intelligence that must be eternal (i.e. not designed) and not subject to the laws of nature created and designed the entire universe for the benefit of one particular species on one particular planet at one particular time—is extraordinary in the extreme.

...
Whether intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is even more uncertain, but nothing we have discovered suggests that the possibility of life requires something supernatural.

In the meantime, both believers and non-believers are done a huge disservice when people promulgate biased and disingenuous claims that distort what current science implies and can imply about the universe. In a society in which the understanding of science is already marginal—and where, at the same time, the continued health of modern society as it meets the challenges of the twenty-first century depends, in some sense, on our ability to utilize our scientific knowledge, both to create new technologies and to help guide rational public policies—this is the last thing we need.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:53 pm
The Debunking Handbook is now a free (PDF) download:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Debunking-Handbook-now-freely-available-download.html
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 06:54 am


This is pretty close to the beginning of how we figure things out based on evidence.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 10:44 am
To fbm
http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/10703923_10205123172699377_463983203863823399_n-587x338.jpg
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 10:52 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Wow, Kierkegaard really had your number, didn't he, quahog? Characterized your mindset perfectly. On both counts.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 11:23 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
Reversing the sense of cause and effect in this statement, as Metaxas does in cosmology, is like saying that it’s a miracle that everyone’s legs are exactly long enough to reach the ground.

That example is a nice counterpoint to the argument that the Universe was "tweaked" to support life and/or humans. The whole point of evolution, even in a grand sense, is that it adapts to fit available conditions, not the other way around.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 11:25 am
@FBM,
Quote:
There's nothing worse than arguing with someone who simply refuses to listen to reason.
     ... and what is your 'reason', if it is not some secret. You don't present any 'reasons' - you are just making spam on the blog by some irrelevant references and by copy-pasting various things from the net, said in connection with something else.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 12:15 pm
@Herald,
You have never shown reason, only ignorant opinions without any basis in fact.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 01:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You have never shown reason, only ignorant opinions without any basis in fact.


Gee, I see from you only Ad Hominems, Ad Hominems and Ad Hominems.

Something bothering you, girlie?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 01:25 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
You can't even see that the ad homs are facts.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 02:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You can't even see that the ad homs are facts


Stating that your Ad Hominems are fact is only repeating the Ad Hominem.
And repeating them, doesn't make them less of an Ad Hominem.
It just shows you are out of real arguments and rather attack the person.
Bit it figures, Girlie, it figures.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2015 02:56 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Do you understand logic?
 

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