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Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 02:39 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

If the God is part of nature then it can't be the designer of nature.


IF a GOD exists, Parados...it is a part of nature.

IF black holes actually exist...they are a part of nature.

IF string theory strings exist...they are a part of nature.

IF the smallest quantum particle can actually be broken down further...that particle is a part of nature.

ANYTHING that exists...is a part of nature.

IF a GOD exists...it is a part of nature.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 02:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
If gods are part of nature then they couldn't design nature. They would simply be part of something that wasn't designed or part of something designed by a god that wasn't part of nature.

Gods that are part of nature can NOT be the intelligent designer of nature. They would simply be a designer of GMO parts of nature.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 03:02 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

If gods are part of nature then they couldn't design nature. They would simply be part of something that wasn't designed or part of something designed by a god that wasn't part of nature.

Gods that are part of nature can NOT be the intelligent designer of nature. They would simply be a designer of GMO parts of nature.


Stop trying to limit the power of a GOD...and tell IT what IT can do and what IT cannot do.

You are simply wrong on this, Parados.

A GOD may simply ALWAYS have existed...and decided to create this thing that you refer to as NATURE. It is a part of that thing...whether you like it or not...and whether you accept it or not.

But the most important thing is: Stop trying to limit the power of a GOD...and tell IT what IT can do and what IT cannot do.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 03:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
This has not been just about science, Olivier.

Well, my message on this thread all along has been to not confuse science with theology. Science's remit is limited to what can be tested empirically. If an idea has no empirical consequences whatsoever, it is not scientific in nature but metaphysical, and there's no clear way to tell if it is true or false. It does not even matter, from a practical standpoint.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 03:27 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
This has not been just about science, Olivier.

Well, my message on this thread all along has been to not confuse science with theology.


That may be, Olivier...

...but it is not always about you.


Quote:
Science's remit is limited to what can be tested empirically. If an idea has no empirical consequences whatsoever, it is not scientific in nature but metaphysical, and there's no clear way to tell if it is true or false. It does not even matter, from a practical standpoint.


Okay...but people ARE trying to answer the question of whether or not there is intelligent design...and are using "science" to do so.

I am merely pointing out that the mistakes and excesses of the proponents of theistic "answers"...is mirrored by the proponents of non-theistic "answers."

I am advocating that we simply acknowledge that we do not know if some kind of intelligent design was involved. I can think of no way to determine if it was or was not.

Apparently you agree.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 03:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
people ARE trying to answer the question of whether or not there is intelligent design...and are using "science" to do so.

Maybe they mean something else by ID than what you mean, then, something observable or testable. Otherwise science cannot help.

Maybe they mean something related to intelligence & design... Eg an orderly, well-planned process. If that's what they are looking for, they won't find it.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 03:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
LOL. So God designed what it is part of. OK. I guess if you want to simply decide what is and isn't then there is no discussion. Tomorrow we can discuss how a Ford Mustang designed the first car.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 04:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
people ARE trying to answer the question of whether or not there is intelligent design...and are using "science" to do so.
Anything that defaults to a ready made base of "knowledge" is certainly NOT science. Every area of ID that has used "science" to show its validity has been debunked. Remember all the kerfuffle about the enzyme "cascade" that promotes blood clotting in mammals? It was posted as an "Irreducible complexity".

Seems like trying to use science to prove religious beliefs goes against at least 4 US Supreme Court and Federal District Court Rulings.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 04:13 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
people ARE trying to answer the question of whether or not there is intelligent design...and are using "science" to do so.

Maybe they mean something else by ID than what you mean, then, something observable or testable. Otherwise science cannot help.


This thing has been going on for almost 300 pages, Olivier. These things have been talked about...discussed.

The only reason you are trying to limit things now is because you see the reasonable nature of my comments...and rather than deal with that, you are trying to put them aside as being of no consequence.

They are important whether you can eventually acknowledge that or not.



Quote:

Maybe they mean something related to intelligence & design... Eg an orderly, well-planned process. If that's what they are looking for, they won't find it.


Whether they find it or not...if it IS...then it IS no matter.

Here is the question that must be answered by the science side of this issue:

Do you agree that IF there is the possibility of a GOD...there is the possibility of intelligent design?

If there is the possibility of intelligent design...then it doesn't matter if we can identify it or observe it or make a reasonable model of it.

All we have to do is to acknowledge that IF there is a GOD...there is the possibility of intelligent design.

The only way one can assert that there is no possibility of intelligent design...is to first assert that there is no possibility of a GOD.

That is the problem you guys are running into...and I am waiting for one of you to develop the spine to acknowledge it.

I suspect I've got a very long wait on my hands here.


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 04:14 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

LOL. So God designed what it is part of. OK. I guess if you want to simply decide what is and isn't then there is no discussion. Tomorrow we can discuss how a Ford Mustang designed the first car.


IF there is a GOD, Parados, that GOD is a part of nature...of the REALITY of what IS.

If you think you can make that come out some other way...go for it.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 04:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
If God is a part of nature then he didn't design nature. End of discussion and of any argument about there being an intelligent designer.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 04:59 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

If God is a part of nature then he didn't design nature. End of discussion and of any argument about there being an intelligent designer.


Stop telling a GOD what it can and cannot do. You really are not in an intellectual position to do that.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 05:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I'm not telling a God what they can do. I am merely trying to explain how the word "design" works.

If a god is part of nature then we are left with part of nature (a god) existing without being designed. That means that logically we would be at the point where nature as a whole isn't designed. When any part of nature is not designed it puts us at the point that gods are not necessary because nature (a god) has appeared out of nothing.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 05:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Hey, it's not always about me, remember? I am not limiting anything. Science itself is limited by definition. It works with data, and cannot deal with stuff that has no practical, observable consequences and hence about which there's no data whatsoever. That is true whether I say it or not, and whether you agree with it or not.

Quote:
Do you agree that IF there is the possibility of a GOD...there is the possibility of intelligent design?


Define GOD and intelligent design first. Are you talking of the smurfs again?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 05:56 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

I'm not telling a God what they can do. I am merely trying to explain how the word "design" works.

If a god is part of nature then we are left with part of nature (a god) existing without being designed. That means that logically we would be at the point where nature as a whole isn't designed. When any part of nature is not designed it puts us at the point that gods are not necessary because nature (a god) has appeared out of nothing.


That is gobbledygook, Parados. But if it makes you happy, indulge yourself.

If there is the possibility of a GOD...then there is the possibility of intelligent design.

You can no more describe the nature of the design...than you can describe the nature of the GOD.

IF there is a GOD...that GOD is part of nature.


0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 05:58 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Hey, it's not always about me, remember? I am not limiting anything. Science itself is limited by definition. It works with data, and cannot deal with stuff that has no practical, observable consequences and hence about which there's no data whatsoever. That is true whether I say it or not, and whether you agree with it or not.

Quote:
Do you agree that IF there is the possibility of a GOD...there is the possibility of intelligent design?


Define GOD and intelligent design first. Are you talking of the smurfs again?



Back to where we were...with you begging for MORE. Sound more like Oliver than Olivier at times.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 06:04 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
We all know that the standard model is incomplete
     Forget about that 'it is incomplete', as you express yourself. What is your understanding of a standard model in the field of cosmology, for example - affording the luxury to be in contradiction with all the laws of math logic and physics, affording itself to make axiomatic claims on quicksand, or what?
FBM wrote:
...but it's a helluva lot more robust than anything you've brought to the table.
     What do you mean by 'more robust' - when you call a mambo jambo 'standard model', and the fake assumptions that it is based upon 'robust' one starts thinking whether you have at all some 'standard' definition of that 'robust'. Can you give some synonyms of your interpretation of standard in the phrases that you use with such a great ease and so casually - 'standard model', 'standard theory', etc.


Holy hell. You really, genuinely, actually don't know what the standard model is, do you? I'm afraid I've vastly underestimated your level of ignorance on the subject. I guess you can be forgiven in the way that pets and young children can be forgiven. Wow.

Anyway, all you have to do is come up with something better and the world will turn on its heel and start following you. Got anything? Nope. If you did, you would've presented it already.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 06:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
are you saying that you have no idea if such life is POSSIBLE????


I'm going to respond to your yelling one more time, but if you keep yelling at me, you will go on my Ignore list, despite how much I generally respect your analyses.

My response is, "Do you?"

Please respond without yelling. I don't tolerate being yelled at in person; I see no reason to put up with it online. I can endure you bolding everything, but if you're going to start using all caps, with all due respect, that's the end of our communication.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 06:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The response to your question depends on how you define the terms of the question. If you can't define a concept, you can't use it in a logical argument. You realize that the following deduction: "if there is the possibility of a SMURF, there is the possibility of intelligent design" is flawed logic, right? Why is it flawed? Because nothing in the concept of SMURF implies a capacity to design new living species... Therefore, for your version to have some logic in it, your concept of GOD must imply some capacity to intelligence and to the design of new species... You might wish to clarify that, as well as the difference between gods and other categories in nature, like plants, stones and animals. Are gods mineral, vegetal or animal? Or something else but then what? You've been avoiding that issue forever.

Then there is the question of what is "intelligent design"? What does it postulate? What does it mean to say "an intelligence designed the hippopotamus"? That god made the first hyppo couple out of inanimate matter like in Genesis, or that he just made the fist bacteria and the general rules of the evolution game, which eons later led to the hyppo? Or that He created life and evolution, PLUS nudged the natural process of evolution here or there by way of 'purposeful mutations' in the genome of His creatures, eg to create the big embranchements? Until the idea is clarified, there are great risks in deducing anything from it.




Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2014 08:01 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

Quote:
are you saying that you have no idea if such life is POSSIBLE????


I'm going to respond to your yelling one more time, but if you keep yelling at me, you will go on my Ignore list, despite how much I generally respect your analyses.

My response is, "Do you?"

Please respond without yelling. I don't tolerate being yelled at in person; I see no reason to put up with it online. I can endure you bolding everything, but if you're going to start using all caps, with all due respect, that's the end of our communication.


I am sorry. I did not realize your sensibilities are so delicate, FBM. Those of us on A2K normally have very thick skin.

I apologize for emphasizing with capital letters. It was not yelling.

I do not yell...in person or on the Internet...and I think any reasonable reading of my comments reveal that to be the case more than Internet conventions like bold or caps. In any case, I will try to use Italics when I want to emphasize while addressing you.

With that out of the way...allow me to answer your question:

There is no way I would use "the paucity of directly relevant evidence" about whether there is intelligent life on the nearest 10 stars to Sol...to cause me to say that I “have no idea whether it is possible or not.”

I would say Of course it is possible…and the paucity of directly relevant evidence does not impact on that one whit.

So…knowing how I would answer the question, I ask it of you again:

"Considering the paucity of directly relevant evidence of intelligent life on the nearest 10 stars to Sol...are you saying that you have no idea if such life is possible?
 

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