12
   

12 Years a Slave: the best depiction about slavery in a movie?

 
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Dec, 2013 08:11 pm
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote: "All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...." 1 Timothy 6:1ff
Now why do you suppose Paul wrote this???

Nice try mate, but in the King James Version that verse begins with-
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour.." (1 Tim 6:1)
Biblically, the Greek word 'doulos' translates as either a slave, servant, or bond-servant, each word had a very different meaning depending on the time and place throughout the centuries. A doulos may therefore well have been a simple house-servant somewhere, or an oppressed Spartacus-type slave somewhere else.
No true Christian would beat a slave or they wouldn't be a true Christian..Smile
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 08:52 am
@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote: "All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...." 1 Timothy 6:1ff
Now why do you suppose Paul wrote this???

Nice try mate, but in the King James Version that verse begins with-
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour.." (1 Tim 6:1)
Biblically, the Greek word 'doulos' translates as either a slave, servant, or bond-servant, each word had a very different meaning depending on the time and place throughout the centuries. A doulos may therefore well have been a simple house-servant somewhere, or an oppressed Spartacus-type slave somewhere else.
No true Christian would beat a slave or they wouldn't be a true Christian..Smile


Nice try yourself, Romeo...but no cigar.

Paul was talking about slaves...the kind the god Jesus worshiped said could be owned; treated as chattels; and kept in slavery forever.

There was absolutely no reason for any early Christian to suppose Jesus did away with the institution of slavery...ownership of other humans...and in fact, Jesus said quite firmly that he was not here to change those kinds of laws.

Paul, speaking in Timothy, Collossians, Titus, Corinthians, and Philemon...specifically referred to slaves...and gave no indication at all that he saw anything wrong or immoral about it.

Many "fine" Christians, including Philemon, owned slaves...and many early Christian fathers saw nothing wrong in slave ownership whatever. Paul himself never said there was anything whatever wrong with it. And neither did Jesus.

Your comment, "True Christians have never owned slaves, never have, never will.. "...is another one of your nonsense tidbits.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 10:06 am
Quote:
Frank Apisa said: There was absolutely no reason for any early Christian to suppose Jesus did away with the institution of slavery...Jesus said quite firmly that he was not here to change those kinds of laws

Keep swinging that golf club mate and you might one day get out of the sandtrap, but not just yet..Smile
This anti-slavery Old Law says- "He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death" (Exodus. 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7)
and you've just said Jesus didn't change the Old Laws, so there ya go..Smile
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romeo Fabulini: he shoots, he scores!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/shoots1_zpsa38dec6c.jpg~original
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 10:12 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: There was absolutely no reason for any early Christian to suppose Jesus did away with the institution of slavery...Jesus said quite firmly that he was not here to change those kinds of laws

Keep swinging that golf club mate and you might one day get out of the sandtrap, but not just yet..Smile
This anti-slavery Old Law says- "He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death" (Exodus. 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7)
and you've just said Jesus didn't change the Old Laws, so there ya go..Smile
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romeo Fabulini: he shoots, he scores!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/shoots1_zpsa38dec6c.jpg~original



Nice try, Romeo...but as usual you missed the net.


"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff


Nothing stolen there...the god talked about buyin' 'em...and breedin' 'em.

Ya know...the god Jesus worshiped...and apparently you worship. Wink

0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 10:13 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Exodus chapter 21. Verse 1
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:03 am
Quote:
Frank Apisa swung with: "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...etc " Leviticus 25:44ff
Nothing stolen there...the god talked about buyin' 'em...and breedin' 'em.
Ya know...the god Jesus worshiped...and apparently you worship

And yet this other Old T verse says- "He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death" (Exodus. 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7)

Like I've already explained, the rules of ownership of servants/slaves varied enormously through the centuries depending on time, place and circumstances, for example as Germlat pointed out-
“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything...But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free’, Then he will be his servant for life" (Exodus 21:1-6)

Frankie baby, the bottom line is you've got FREE CHOICE to keep a slave chained up in your cellar to polish your golf clubs if you like, but I don't think Jesus would be too pleased and you'd better have your excuses ready for when you meet him face to face..Wink
Jesus said-"pray that you may be able to stand before me” (Luke 21:36)
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:07 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
You too, Romeo fabulously wrong. How do you expect a god of goodness
to treat a guy who coddles war criminals and terrorists like you do?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:11 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa swung with: "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...etc " Leviticus 25:44ff
Nothing stolen there...the god talked about buyin' 'em...and breedin' 'em.
Ya know...the god Jesus worshiped...and apparently you worship

And yet this other Old T verse says- "He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death" (Exodus. 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7)

Like I've already explained, the rules of ownership of servants/slaves varied enormously through the centuries depending on time, place and circumstances, as Germlat pointed out-
“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything...But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’, Then he will be his servant for life" (Exodus 21:1-6)

Frankie baby, the bottom line is you've got FREE CHOICE to keep a slave chained up in your cellar to polish your golf clubs if you like, but I don't think Jesus would be too pleased and you'd better have your excuses ready for when you meet him face to face..Wink
Jesus said-"pray that you may be able to stand before me” (Luke 21:36)


Your god...the god Jesus worshiped...said ownership of slaves was permissible (and therefore deemed moral).

Jesus never said there was anything wrong with owning slaves...and neither did Paul. (Paul, in effect, in Philemon, conceded there was nothing wrong with owning slaves.)

Your earlier comment that no true Christian ever owned slaves...never will...

...is demonstrably false.

But keep shooting, Romeo. The net is still there...and maybe by luck you will only miss it by a little, rather than the whiffs you have shot so far. Wink

0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:13 am
Quote:
JTT said: You too, Romeo fabulously wrong. How do you expect a god of goodness to treat a guy who coddles war criminals and terrorists like you do?

Welcome to my sunday school class mate, now go sit next to Frankie Apisa and behave..Smile
I've never voted for the 3 main Brit political parties because they like invading mideast countries and killing people. And in America the Democrats and Republican parties do the same thing, so if i was a yank I wouldn't vote for them either.
Who do you vote for? And you Frankie?
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:24 am
Quote:
Frankie sent up another shower of sand with: @RF-Your earlier comment that no true Christian ever owned slaves...never will...
...is demonstrably false

Here's Adolf in a staged propaganda pic after visiting a church, i suppose you think he's a true christian too..Wink
Jesus explained that it's what people DO that lets us see if they're true christians or not, so invading other countries and slave-owning is definitely not a good sign!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/hitler_church.jpg~original
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:28 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
The slave master may have free choice on what to do with his slave, romeo, as you said. The slave didn't. That's the point. And whether or not you think "true christians" wouldn't keep slaves, people who thought of themselves as "true christians" did in fact keep slaves for centuries. A fsct you cannot deny and that many christian churches were comfortable with; you can't change history ex post facto.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:31 am
Quote:
Monterey Jack said: "true christians" did in fact keep slaves for centuries.

What makes you think they were true christians?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:35 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
JTT said: You too, Romeo fabulously wrong. How do you expect a god of goodness to treat a guy who coddles war criminals and terrorists like you do?

Welcome to my sunday school class mate, now go sit next to Frankie Apisa and behave..Smile
I've never voted for the 3 main Brit political parties because they like invading mideast countries and killing people. And in America the Democrats and Republican parties do the same thing, so if i was a yank I wouldn't vote for them either.
Who do you vote for? And you Frankie?


I either vote for the person I think will do the best job...or for the person I think screw things up more than any other.

Sometimes I vote for someone I actually feel comfortable with...someone I think will at least attempt to do (what I consider to be) the right thing.

Sometimes I vote for what is in effect, the lesser of several evils.

Someone has to lead...and in the system in which I live, that job falls to the person elected.

I contribute my vote in every election. I try to make it as informed a vote as possible.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:37 am
re romeo:
they thought they wereChristians,, they acted on that belief, and their churches backed them up. Their actions were part and parcel of what Christianity has actually DONE over the centuries. That's the historical record. I don't really care what Christians SAY. It's what they DO that's important.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:38 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
Jesus explained that it's what people DO that lets us see if they're true christians or not, so invading other countries and slave-owning is definitely not a good sign!


One...that does not have anything whatever to do with me suggesting that your statement that no true Christian ever owned slaves.

Two...I must have missed the part where Jesus "explained" that. I would have bet anything that Jesus never said anything about Christians at all.

Would you mind citing the quote for me?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:39 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

re romeo:
they thought they wereChristians,, they acted on that belief, and their churches backed them up. Their actions were part and parcel of what Christianity has actually DONE over the centuries. That's the historical record. I don't really care what Christians SAY. It's what they DO that's important.


Romeo wants to be the final arbiter of who is and who is not a "true Christian." He's sorta like Sarah Palin deciding who is and who is not a "true American."
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 01:53 pm
Kiddies, kiddies, BEHAVE!...the naughty step....
Let's run through what we've established so far-
1- The Old and New Testaments both contain pro-slavery verses and anti-slavery verses
2- Jesus never mentioned slavery one way or the other, not a single word
3- He therefore left it to our FREE WILL to decide whether owning a slave is a good or bad thing, call it a test.
4- I personally have no desire to own a slave.
If a so-called "christian" wants to own one, I'd say he has no right to call himself a christian.
If other people think slave owners have the right to be called christians, more fool them, they tooflunk the test bigtime..Smile
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romeo Fabulini: "Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world like a Colossus" (Shakesp's Julius Caesar)
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/POS-swagger2_zps8e311a2c.jpg~original
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 01:55 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Kiddies, kiddies, BEHAVE!...the naughty step....
Let's run through what we've established so far-
1- The Old and New Testaments both contain pro-slavery verses and anti-slavery verses


We have????

Which verses from the Old Testament do you consider anti-slavery?

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Dec, 2013 01:59 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:

2- Jesus never mentioned slavery one way or the other, not a single word


We do not know if he did or didn't...but if he did, it was not reported in the Bible.

Quote:
3- He therefore left it to our FREE WILL to decide whether owning a slave is a good or bad thing, call it a test.


Better to call it a completely unwarranted, gratuitous fabrication. The right to own slaves falls within the Law. Jesus specifically said he was not here to change any of the Law.

C'mon.

Quote:
4- I personally have no desire to own a slave.


Good for you. But according to the Bible...doing so would not make you a bad Christian...or put another way, you could be a good Christian...and still own a slave.

Quote:
If a so-called "christian" wants to own one, I'd say he has no right to call himself a christian.


Anyone has a right to call himself a Christian...even an atheist.

You've got to learn to be more careful with your wording.

0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2014 10:28 pm
Two major Oscar awards so far tonight: screenwriting and best supporting actress.
 

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