21
   

The Half-life of Facts.

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 12:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
No one is saying that REALITY has to be known or understood by humans to be REALITY


O really? On what basis then would you say unicorns aren't real, for instance?

In fact, how can something that is not known to us be known as reality???

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 12:25 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
No one is saying that REALITY has to be known or understood by humans to be REALITY


O really?


YES...REALLY!

Quote:
On what basis then would you say unicorns aren't real, for instance?


I have NEVER said they are not real. If you want to say that...then you tell me the basis for it.

(If by "unicorn" you mean a horse-like creature with a horn coming out of its forehead...nobody here can know if they exist or do not exist somewhere. If by "unicorn" you mean a fictional creature from human lore...then you can call it fictional.)

Quote:

In fact, how can something that is not known to us be known as reality???


JESUS H. CHRIST, Cyracuz...how many times do I have to repeat that something can be real without our knowing about it. There are many, many things that we have just learned about recently. Before learning about them...before we "knew" they existed...they almost certainly existed. Unless you are suggesting that anything we discover comes into being only because we discover it.

Christ, man...finally get this.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 12:29 pm
@G H,
You're speaking to Romeo as though he is capable of understanding what you say. That's cute!
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 12:45 pm
Incidentally there are strong indications in many ancient scriptures (including Christianity) that our "reality" is just an illusion or "dream".
Classic example is when Jesus apparently bent the laws of physics to produce what people saw as "miracles", so perhaps he was a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation?', heck he was almost as good as David Blaine..Smile
JC said WE could do miracle stuff too IF we believed we could.
(Incidentally perhaps "prayer" is "thought pressure" that can influence this dream we call "reality"?)

This episode of the Twilight Zone called "The Arrival" touched on the "illusion" theme when an air crash investigator fully believed that this DC-3 was an illusion, so he pushed his hand into its whirling prop (below)-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/TZTheArrival_zps99796e1e.jpg~original

G H
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 01:08 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
This episode of the Twilight Zone called "The Arrival" touched on the "illusion" theme when an air crash investigator fully believed that this DC-3 was an illusion, so he pushed his hand into its whirling prop (below)-

I remember a mentally unstable, homeless man who terrorized the neighborhoods he infrequently visited, though not often or severely enough to be regularly jailed and receive the meds he needed. He got that way from his head likewise challenging an airplane propeller (accidentally in this case), but one that fortunately wasn't at full speed yet. I suppose it would still be construed by some as a miracle of sorts that he survived at all to continue an addled life.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 01:14 pm
@G H,
Yes, I read that celebrated anti-Derrida letter. I like his attitude to context and aporia, and I'm intrigued by his apparent success in the USA. But I doubt whether I would have taken an interest in him had it not been for his endorsement by Rorty. My lack of interest (hitherto) in Deleuze is perhaps due to his association with Sartre whom Dreyfus dismisses as misunderstanding Heidegger.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 01:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
JESUS H. CHRIST


I've always wondered about that H in there. What does it stand for?

Quote:
Before learning about them...before we "knew" they existed...they almost certainly existed. Unless you are suggesting that anything we discover comes into being only because we discover it.


I have said that I think of reality as that which is experienced. It follows that something we have no knowledge of whatsoever does not exist.

People have always become sick, but it wasn't until the discovery of micro organisms that germs were given as the cause.
Whatever causes people to become sick did not come into existence that day, but the human concept "germs" did.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 01:41 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
JESUS H. CHRIST


I've always wondered about that H in there. What does it stand for?


I think it was Hyman.


Quote:

Quote:
Before learning about them...before we "knew" they existed...they almost certainly existed. Unless you are suggesting that anything we discover comes into being only because we discover it.


I have said that I think of reality as that which is experienced. It follows that something we have no knowledge of whatsoever does not exist.

People have always become sick, but it wasn't until the discovery of micro organisms that germs were given as the cause.
Whatever causes people to become sick did not come into existence that day, but the human concept "germs" did.


Do you truly not see the disconnect there, Cyracuz?

You are saying that "you think" things about which we have no knowledge do not exist.

But two paragraphs later you gave an example of something we had no knowledge of...and you stipulated that it did exist even though we had no knowledge.

We have no knowledge of any other living creatures anywhere in this galaxy. Are you actually suggesting that therefore they do not exist?

Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 01:44 pm
GH said:
Quote:
..a mentally unstable man..got that way from his head likewise challenging an airplane propeller..a miracle of sorts that he survived at all to continue an addled life

Sounds like he was bananas BEFORE he pushed his head into the prop, otherwise he wouldn't have done it..Smile
(Crackpot religious snake-handling cults are the same, keeping their fingers crossed they they won't get bitten, and ending up with an assfull of venom)
PS- let me throw this bunch of Bible quotes into the playpen which indicate Jesus brought out the power in people to heal themselves, ie "manipulate the dream"

"..the blind men came to him, and he asked them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?"
"Yes, Lord," they replied.
Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you"; and their sight was restored" (Matt 9:28 )

"Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment" (Matt 9:22)

"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road" (Mark 10:52)

"Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well" (Luke 17:19)

"Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour" (Matt 8:13)

But in some places:-
"..he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58 )


So in a way, Jesus was like the coach of a football team, firing people up to go out and get a win..Smile
-------------------------------------------------
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/swag80_zps72962e87.gif~original
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 02:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
We have no knowledge of any other living creatures anywhere in this galaxy. Are you actually suggesting that therefore they do not exist?


As far as we KNOW they do not exist.
That is all we can say without speculating.

They might exist, but if we are going by what MIGHT exist, I can dream up anything and you would be forced to admit that it MIGHT exist.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 02:22 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
We have no knowledge of any other living creatures anywhere in this galaxy. Are you actually suggesting that therefore they do not exist?


As far as we KNOW they do not exist.
That is all we can say without speculating.

They might exist, but if we are going by what MIGHT exist, I can dream up anything and you would be forced to admit that it MIGHT exist.


Look, Cyracuz...we were talking about REALITY. And you indicated that REALITY does not include anything that humans do not experience.

I am asking you...since we have no knowledge of any other living creatures anywhere in this universe...are you actually suggesting therefore there are no other creatures living anywhere in the univese?

I KNOW WE DO NOT KNOW IF THEY EXIST...but that is not what we are discussing.

Why are you being so unethical in this discussion?

From the change in what you are asserting and the way you are asserting it...it is obvious that you realize you were wrong earlier.

Why not just acknowledge that...and we can move on?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 02:24 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
JESUS H. CHRIST


I've always wondered about that H in there. What does it stand for?


Holloway. You know, "Our Father, Who art in heaven, Holloway be thy name . . .
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 04:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I am asking you...since we have no knowledge of any other living creatures anywhere in this universe...are you actually suggesting therefore there are no other creatures living anywhere in the univese?


If we have no knowledge of any other life in the universe, we have no reason to assume it exists.
Whatever may actually be the case, that is not what we should call REALITY.
What we can experience and create knowledge about, that is what we should call REALITY.

That is our fundamental disagreement, as I see it. You keep insisting that REALITY is something beyond us, feeding itself to our senses, letting us experience it.
I think that view is unwarranted, and claim that "reality as we experience it" is the only reality we should be talking about since it is the only realty we have.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 05:38 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
I am asking you...since we have no knowledge of any other living creatures anywhere in this universe...are you actually suggesting therefore there are no other creatures living anywhere in the univese?


If we have no knowledge of any other life in the universe, we have no reason to assume it exists.
Whatever may actually be the case, that is not what we should call REALITY.
What we can experience and create knowledge about, that is what we should call REALITY.

That is our fundamental disagreement, as I see it. You keep insisting that REALITY is something beyond us, feeding itself to our senses, letting us experience it.
I think that view is unwarranted, and claim that "reality as we experience it" is the only reality we should be talking about since it is the only realty we have.


Well, apparently you are going to be stone-headed about this thing, Cyracuz, so go ahead and be.

Quote:
You keep insisting that REALITY is something beyond us,


I am doing no such thing. I am saying that REALITY is EVERYTHING that exists...and that includes not only the minute amount of stuff we humans know about...but also the immense amount of stuff we do not.

You are insisting that only the stuff humans know about is REALITY. It is an absolutely absurd position.


It may be that humans…Homo Sapiens, on planet Earth…are the most essential component of REALITY in this universe. And I do not mean just here in the planets circling the 200 - 600 billion stars of our galaxy, but everywhere…in every one of the hundred plus billion galaxies of which we know. We MAY BE that important despite the fact that Homo Sapiens has only been around for a couple hundred thousand years…and the rest of the known universe for about 13.6 billion years.

Not sure why you are so certain Homo Sapiens is essential to REALITY…or why you would want to arbitrarily exclude from REALITY anything that predates Homo Sapiens…or that MAY exist outside the knowledge and consideration of Homo Sapiens, but that is your right. There are no rules of life or of A2K that can prevent someone for suggesting the glaringly absurd for consideration.

And there is precedent. At one time, Homo Sapiens thought they were the center of everything…certainly of the universe. They thought the Earth was a pancake flat something or other…smack dab in the center of everything.

Interesting that there are people who want to move us back to those days.




Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 07:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Your materialistic bias makes you blind to the point I am trying to get across.

Quote:
Not sure why you are so certain Homo Sapiens is essential to REALITY…or why you would want to arbitrarily exclude from REALITY anything that predates Homo Sapiens…


How about this? What if you assume that that's NOT what I mean.

Any fact, any piece of knowledge we possess is some form of description.
You can rant about homo sapiens and what might have predated us, but that is irrelevant.
"Homo sapiens" is a distinction of our making. ANY object you can name... it's a distinction made from a human perspective. Without a human understanding in which objects have contextual meaning, the naming of objects would mean nothing.

Or I can put it in the form of a question: Do the identities of objects, their place and purpose, come from the objects themselves, or are they projections of a being that sees a purpose to identifying objects?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 07:36 pm
@Setanta,
Here I was thinking it might be like the S in Harry S. Truman...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 07:57 pm
@G H,
Quote:
Aha, I knew Ted Honderich's choice of animated metaphors would be clarified someday.

"One thinks of French philosophy that it aspires to the condition of literature or the condition of art, and that English and American philosophy aspires to the condition of science. French philosophy, one thinks of as picking up an idea and running with it, possibly into a nearby brick wall or over a local cliff, or something like that." --Poked into ears across the Channel by BBC Radio in the late '90s.

The English preventions and dare I say prejudice against this French emphasis on literature and art in philosophy started with Bergson. I agree that it went overboard somewhat somewhere around the 60's and 70's but still, there is value in intuition, metaphors, synthesis and, yes, rhetoric, style and art as gateways to human reality.

Considering that philosophy includes the study and understanding of human condition, an excessive emphasis on analysis alone misses a huge part of what the human experience is about. We have a right brain too, not only a left one. Analysis is potentially and endless, deconstructive process, which never leads anywhere unless it is periodically reframed, reshaped and requestioned by 'big picture' thinkers, who are almost necessarily intuitive thinkers. Many of the intuitions a Derrida noted on a piece of paper led to countless academic careers spent analysing that bit of intuitive thinking. I'm not saying all his or anybody's intuitions are always right, but pleading for a serious consideration for other modes of thinking than the purely analytical.

Even in social sciences, where the French school(s) seriously and methodically tried to get rid of rhetoric and art when they established sociology and anthropology as sciences, in the 20-30's, but art kept cropping up in their (non-scientific) writing, because their thesis and research material included so much artistic items (myths, sculptures etc that SHOULD be seen with an artist's eye too) and because their research was an often trying and difficult human adventure, a sort of quest for sense and meaning, important enough that it needed to be said.

Nowadays, many Americans anthropologists are rediscovering the virtues of literary critique and first-person narratives. Because theur subject matter is the same as a large part f philosophy: us, humans, and our lives and thoughts, which literature or art can help approach or describe in its globality.



Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Nov, 2013 08:45 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Without a human understanding in which objects have contextual meaning, the naming of objects would mean nothing.

They would mean nothing TO A HUMAN. Animals cannot speak but many can categorize their own species, and spot predators and prey/fodder species. And these categories have meaning for them. The question is: are they purely subjective, or is there such a thing as 'tigers' as an objective category in nature. Species certainly have the status of an objective category in biology, although the borders can be fuzzy in practice. But the fact that species recognition has an instinctive basis, makes it look objective. However fuzzy and subjective the biological limit between two species of tigers, it is objectively a very strong survival trait to be able to spot some zoological categories, important enough that it found its way into our and birds' and mammals' genetic code somehow. We're talking chemical/biological language here, DNA, far far older than any human language...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 03:37 am
@Olivier5,
A more important consideration with regard to Fresco's hobby horse is that before human understanding, there was a reality, and there were facts which lead to the evolution of humanity. Fresco consistently dodges the question of the provenance of humanity when i ask it because he recognizes the fatal flaw in his little word game.

Before humans arose, there was a reality and there were facts without which humans would not have arisen. That does not mean that there would not have been an equivalent intelligence, and some people today believe that cetaceans are an equivalent intelligence. The silly game being played here is like a child dabbling in a puddle and all it the sea.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 05:34 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Your materialistic bias makes you blind to the point I am trying to get across.

Quote:
Not sure why you are so certain Homo Sapiens is essential to REALITY…or why you would want to arbitrarily exclude from REALITY anything that predates Homo Sapiens…


How about this? What if you assume that that's NOT what I mean.

Any fact, any piece of knowledge we possess is some form of description.
You can rant about homo sapiens and what might have predated us, but that is irrelevant.
"Homo sapiens" is a distinction of our making. ANY object you can name... it's a distinction made from a human perspective. Without a human understanding in which objects have contextual meaning, the naming of objects would mean nothing.

Or I can put it in the form of a question: Do the identities of objects, their place and purpose, come from the objects themselves, or are they projections of a being that sees a purpose to identifying objects?


If there are things in the universe that we humans do not know about...they are still there...they are part of REALITY.

Your mind is closed on this, Cyracuz...and the bizarre dance you are doing because you cannot acknowledge that you are off-base here...is disturbing to watch.

 

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