Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 12:18 pm
Quote:
Worldtraveller said to Neologist: Apostasy? I am on fire for God! You are the one who does not believe in the fire-not in your soul nor in hell!

That's it, you tell him!
He's just a Jehovah's Witness so all you'll get from him is a tangled furball of JW doctrine..Smile
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 12:22 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Quote:
Neologist asked me and Worldtraveller: If everlasting hell fire, or other torture, is in store for unrepentant sinners, who is in charge of the furnace?

How should I know mate? Just be patient and you and your JW chums might one day find out..
It has to belong to somebody. Thought you might say Satan. Wonder what WT thinks.
worldtraveler24
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 02:23 pm
@neologist,
The Lord Himself is the One who stokes the Fire. He is the CREATOR of all things!
(I thought Jesus was the Creator of all things...Oh, yes, Jesus is GOD!)

I like all of you posters--each one brings a unique perspective to the whole conversation; HOWEVER, there is a right and a wrong.

I applaud Neo for studying the scriptures but he has studied so much trying to inherit the earth mind you that he has forgotten to have a relationship with the Author of the Book! The one who needs to revisit the scriptures would be you my friend. You disregard the most important reality of the scripture: That Jesus died, was buried and rose again the third day to gain your freedom from sin. You pick and choose what fits your unfounded doctrine and call it the gospel. I am still wondering when you JWs are going to declare that the tribulation is finished --oh yes, when was it the Jesus the converted archangel Michael came back to earth? 1914 or has that been changed again for the I don't know how many times. It appears that the JW's make up their own doctrine as they go along!

You are trying to gain a place with the 144,000 by studying and knocking on doors but the reality is that you can not earn your way there--besides I don't imagine that you are Jewish and this is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel. It is only by the grace of God and that not of yourself it is the gift of God lest any man should boast.

You must obey the scriptures, which if you don't have the Holy Spirit of the Book of Acts you have not experienced true salvation. We must die to our flesh, be buried in baptism as the scripture commands and receive the Holy Spirit into our hearts in order to have the same power to over come as Jesus did. But since you disregard Jesus as the savior of mankind I guess we are not even playing in the same ball field.

Romeo-- I applaud you as well but you obviously have no revelation knowledge of who Jesus the Christ really is. What is a son? Is Jehovah the father who has the white beard and Jesus is the son with the little gray beard? To what is son referring? Spirit only or the flesh?

The real issue is that you cannot see past the physical you can only see Father and Son and Holy Spirit as three distinct persons--they unfortunately are not. There is no trinity--the word is not even scriptural.

These are titles that refer to positions in relationships to others. I am a father and a son and a husband but I am only one person....not three. I have a name as well! My children call me father but that is not my name. My Mother calls me son; but that is not my name. My wife calls me honey but that is not my name. I have one name and I hold three distinct roles in life but I am only one person: NOT THREE. There is an explanation for just about everything if you search long and hard enough.

The sad reality is if you don't believe that Jesus is GOD you are not a Christian. The whole pretext on which Christianity is based is the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. The Eternal Spirit JHVH overshadowed Mary a virgin and she was impregnated with a man-child or a fleshly body to house a portion of the Eternal Spirit. You say that he had the Holy Spirit but that He was not GOD. How is it that possible? Who walked on water? Who said "before Abraham was, I AM?" Who said in Matthew 28:18 that ALL power was given to Him in Heaven and in Earth--all means there is nothing left for anyone else!~
The revelation is there if you will open your eyes and lift them above the flesh barrier.

Frank, will he is sincere at least he does not believe a bunch of falsehoods about the scripture. He admits that he has no idea if there is a God or not.

I am well aware of who I worship--I just hope you all can figure it out soon!

There is none beside HIM! JESUS IS GOD!
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 02:45 pm
Quote:
Worldtraveller said: I applaud Neo for studying the scriptures but he has studied so much trying to inherit the earth mind you that he has forgotten to have a relationship with the Author of the Book!

Haha yes, Jesus had to say the same to the snooty priests, telling them to get their noses out of their heavyweight theological volumes and to just glance up to see him standing in front of them..Smile-
Jesus said:-"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)

It reminds me of when Star Wars star Ewan McGregor stopped at the Star Wars attraction in Tunisia during a motorbike trip.
It was full of tourists and there were pictures of him on the walls, but NOBODY RECOGNISED HIM, ha ha..Smile

Here are some stills from the vid-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Tun-McGregor_zps1e25b53d.jpg~original

The bit runs from 7 minutes to 9 minutes-
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 02:58 pm
Quote:
Worldtraveller said: Romeo-- I applaud you as well but you obviously have no revelation knowledge of who Jesus the Christ really is.

Jesus said to his disciples-"Who do you think I am?", and Simon Peter answered-
“You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven" (Matt 16:13-17)


If Simon Peter was wrong, why didn't Jesus correct him?..Wink
worldtraveler24
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 03:05 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
My friend, He was the son of the living GOD. Substitute flesh in place of son...who was Jesus ? the flesh of the living GOD! the SON or flesh was the offspring of the living GOD! The Father is the Eternal Spirit who created the flesh or the son to house the Eternal Spirit of GOD. You cannot split GOD into two~! He is one.!
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 03:36 pm
@worldtraveler24,
worldtraveler24 wrote:
The Lord Himself is the One who stokes the Fire. He is the CREATOR of all things!
(I thought Jesus was the Creator of all things...Oh, yes, Jesus is GOD!)
So when was this lake of fire created and why were not Adam and Eve warned of it?
worldtraveler24 wrote:
You disregard the most important reality of the scripture: That Jesus died, was buried and rose again the third day to gain your freedom from sin.
What makes you say that? The only difference is I would place more emphasis on Jesus' death.
worldtraveler24 wrote:
You pick and choose what fits your unfounded doctrine and call it the gospel. I am still wondering when you JWs are going to declare that the tribulation is finished
Here you are showing the folly of listening to what others say about Jehovah's Witnesses. The tribulation has not started.
worldtraveler24 wrote:
--oh yes, when was it the Jesus the converted archangel Michael came back to earth? 1914
1914 is simply the date marking the end of the Gentile Times. We werer right about that, having noted the year in advance. And, since it was marked by the onset of the worst war in world history, we apparently got that part right.
worldtraveler24 wrote:
or has that been changed again for the I don't know how many times. It appears that the JW's make up their own doctrine as they go along!
After nearly 2000 years of apostasy, it took a long time to root false doctrine completely out of our organization. We celebrated Christmas for the last time in 1926, I'm told. Would it have been correct to continue in a pagan practice under the false assumption that, since God had been willing to forgive our degrading practice in the past, he would just continue so we could feel better?
worldtraveler24 wrote:
You are trying to gain a place with the 144,000
No
worldtraveler24 wrote:
by studying and knocking on doors but the reality is that you can not earn your way there
Not trying to earn, but simply following Matthew 28: 19,20. Faith without works is dead, after all. (James 2:26)
worldtraveler24 wrote:
--besides I don't imagine that you are Jewish
Correct. Jews no longer have special standing anyway.
worldtraveler24 wrote:
and this is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel.
If you mean the 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation, they are not equivalent to the 12 tribes of ancestral Israel. Compare the lists yourself when you have time. God's covenant with the nation of Israel ended with the baptism of Cornelius, at the end of the 70 weeks prophecied by Daniel.
worldtraveler24 wrote:
It is only by the grace of God and that not of yourself it is the gift of God lest any man should boast.
OK
worldtraveler24 wrote:
You must obey the scriptures, . . . .. But since you disregard Jesus as the savior of mankind I guess we are not even playing in the same ball field.
Without Jesus' sacrifice, we would be without hope; so I don't understand what you mean.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 03:41 pm
@worldtraveler24,
worldtraveler24 wrote:
My friend, He was the son of the living GOD. Substitute flesh in place of son
Who gave you permission to insert a new word?
Quote:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. . (Colossians 1:15)
Go back to Proverbs chapter 8 to learn more of his prehuman existence.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 03:46 pm
Do you people really want to rely on the writings of relatively unsophisticated, relatively unknowledgeable, superstitious ancient Hebrews for instruction on what the REALITY of existence is???

You guys are too intelligent for that.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 03:57 pm
Quote:
Worldtraveller said to me: You cannot split GOD into two~! He is one.!

I know..Smile
Jesus had a tremendous amount of the God-given holy spirit in him, but that didn't make him God!
All true Christians have a lesser amount of that same spirit in them in but that doesn't make them God either..Smile
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 04:06 pm
Quote:
Worldtraveller said: It appears that the JW's make up their own doctrine as they go along!

Right, it's an imperfect "vanity cult" for people who like to think they know more than the rest of us poor schmucks..Smile
"I can say truly that JWs are most certainly not perfect" (Neologist 18 Aug 2006)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 05:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you people really want to rely on the writings of relatively unsophisticated, relatively unknowledgeable, superstitious ancient Hebrews for instruction on what the REALITY of existence is???

You guys are too intelligent for that.
It is you who are too intelligent, Frank.
Quote:
At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. (Matthew 11:25)
Quote:
Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 06:00 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you people really want to rely on the writings of relatively unsophisticated, relatively unknowledgeable, superstitious ancient Hebrews for instruction on what the REALITY of existence is???

You guys are too intelligent for that.
It is you who are too intelligent, Frank.
Quote:



At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. (Matthew 11:25)
Quote:
Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13)



How you can you actually rely on that nonsense, Neo? Primitive people; relatively uneducated; superstitious to a fault. You are relying on what is essentially Iron Age men...or just a little past that.

And you folk buy into it?

It makes so little sense...except for the fear factor.
kiuku
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 06:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
how did it get to be that way though?
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2014 07:02 pm
Quote:
Frank Apisa said: Primitive people; relatively uneducated; superstitious to a fault. You are relying on what is essentially Iron Age men...or just a little past that.

Actually the Israel of 2000 years ago was a well-organised well-educated country, they weren't cavemen! And 2000 years is just yesterday compared to older civilisations like Egypt which goes back to 10,000 years BC.
So Israel was a relatively civilised place for Jesus to be sent to; at least he lasted 3 years before they killed him.
If he'd been sent to America he'd have been scalped inside 5 minutes, and if he'd been sent to Africa they'd have had him in the cookpot as soon as he arrived..Smile
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2014 03:36 am
@kiuku,
kiuku wrote:

how did it get to be that way though?


How did what get to be what way?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2014 03:40 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: Primitive people; relatively uneducated; superstitious to a fault. You are relying on what is essentially Iron Age men...or just a little past that.

Actually the Israel of 2000 years ago was a well-organised well-educated country, they weren't cavemen!


Actually, most of "the Bible" was written before 2000 years ago...and the people writing it were of a civilization that was RELATIVELY unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, and very superstitious.



Quote:
And 2000 years is just yesterday compared to older civilisations like Egypt which goes back to 10,000 years BC.


If you want to base your perspective of REALITY on the writings of ancient people...do so. If you want to present that as being reasonable and logical...don't, because it isn't. It actually is quite absurd.



Quote:
So Israel was a relatively civilised place for Jesus to be sent to; at least he lasted 3 years before they killed him.


It was an ancient, relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious place.

0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2014 07:30 am
Quote:
Frank Apisa said: Actually, most of "the Bible" was written before 2000 years ago...and the people writing it were of a civilization that was RELATIVELY unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, and very superstitious.

They never went looking for God, HE came looking for THEM, and when he told some people he wanted them to pass on his messages to the people, they tried to talk their way out of the job because they knew the snooty priests would come gunning for them..Smile
For example-
Moses said "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, i'm slow of speech and tongue, please send somebody else to Pharoah" (Exodus 4:10)

And Jonah was so scared he refused pointblank to be a prophet and jumped on a ship to escape, bad call -
"Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish." (Jonah 1:3)

And young Jeremiah freaked out -
"Lord i'm no good at speaking, i'm too young and people won't take me seriously" (Jeremiah 1:6)
and God explained to him- “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”


He chooses other people for things too, if only they knew it..Smile-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/charlie.gif~original
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2014 08:54 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: Actually, most of "the Bible" was written before 2000 years ago...and the people writing it were of a civilization that was RELATIVELY unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, and very superstitious.

They never went looking for God, HE came looking for THEM{/quote]

If you want to live in Wonderland, Romeo...go for it.

But almost certainly they went looking for it rather than the other way around. The god is made in our image...not the other way around.

Sorta like you. You went looking for a god...and you found it.




0 Replies
 
worldtraveler24
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2014 09:26 am
@neologist,
Thanks for the response. I too will rebut your comments:

Neo: So when was this lake of fire created and why were not Adam and Eve warned of it--I have already answered this question once before.

WT: How do you explain Revelation 21:8 if you say you don't believe in the Lake of Fire? God did warn Adam and Eve by telling them they would surely die!

Neo: What makes you say that? The only difference is I would place more emphasis on Jesus' death.

WT: Without the resurrection there is no salvation.

Neo: Here you are showing the folly of listening to what others say about Jehovah's Witnesses. The tribulation has not started.

WT: Ok --was misinformed.

Neo: 1914 is simply the date marking the end of the Gentile Times. We werer right about that, having noted the year in advance. And, since it was marked by the onset of the worst war in world history, we apparently got that part right.

WT: Apparently you are so wrong because Gentiles are still receiving the Holy Spirit as they early church did in the Book of Acts. How does WWI have anything to do with the Gentile times? This is unfounded. Joel states that in the last days God would pour out of His Spirit upon all flesh including the Gentiles. This is off in left field....not sure how you come up with the end of the Gentiles.

Neo: After nearly 2000 years of apostasy, it took a long time to root false doctrine completely out of our organization. We celebrated Christmas for the last time in 1926, I'm told. Would it have been correct to continue in a pagan practice under the false assumption that, since God had been willing to forgive our degrading practice in the past, he would just continue so we could feel better?

WT: I am not Catholic and therefore do not celebrate the Christ mas either. It is pagan in origin and I would agree 100%. However, my point was that you cannot make up doctrine as you go along--you must stick with the WORD of God!

Neo: No

WT: So you are not even attempting to go the New Jerusalem that John saw coming down out of heaven? You have been ripped off her my friend. Jesus said I go away to prepare a place for you that where I am there you may be also. This is not just for the 144,000 Jews. Look into that again. The scripture is full of proofs that You can attain heaven as well.

Neo: Not trying to earn, but simply following Matthew 28: 19,20. Faith without works is dead, after all. (James 2:26)

WT: I would agree; however, you don't even baptize so how are you fulfilling the Great Commission? You don't even understand the revelation of who Jesus is --how can you fulfill His commission? I know of assuredly that you could not even cast a devil out either if you had one staring you in the face. It is obvious that you don't have the Holy Spirit in your soul since you disregard Acts 2;38 totally and make up your own rules to salvation. Thus you have no power to heal the sick either. Jesus said that these signs shall follow them that believe. Mark 16--Mark's rendition of the Great Commission. I have prayed for the sick and they have been healed. I have cast out devils in the name of Jesus and they flee. This is the difference between your religion and my salvation.

Neo: Correct. Jews no longer have special standing anyway.

WT: That would be incorrect. They are God's chosen people and that will never change. We Gentiles have an opportunity for salvation only because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah.
John 1:11-13King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (JESUS' NAME)

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You said that the Tribulation has not started yet--that is correct--for whom is the tribulation? It is called the 70th week of Daniel. It is for the Jews. This is when Jesus Himself will rescue His people from all of their enemies at the battle of Armageddon.

Neo: you mean the 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation, they are not equivalent to the 12 tribes of ancestral Israel. Compare the lists yourself when you have time. God's covenant with the nation of Israel ended with the baptism of Cornelius, at the end of the 70 weeks prophecied by Daniel.

WT: That would be incorrect. The 70th week of Daniel has not even begun as of yet. God's covenant to the House of Israel is still in full effect.

God has never canceled His promise to Abraham that he would father a vast multitude and that his physical, obedient seed will occupy Palestine.

St. Paul says clearly in Romans 8 that apostate Jews have broken God’s covenant. They can’t receive God’s covenant promises because they do not hold up their end of the bargain: giving God the faith of Abraham. Consider:

•Genesis 17:9, 18:19 and 26:5 say Abraham’s seed must keep the covenant through obedience.


•Genesis 17:14 says covenant breaking means being cut off.


•Genesis 17:19 says Jews only find covenant blessing by keeping the way of the Lord.


•Genesis 26:4 reinforces that the covenant exists because of obedience.


•Deuteronomy 1:37 details how Joshua’s obedience empowered Israel to inherit the covenant promise of occupying Canaan.


•Deuteronomy 7:12 is particularly definitive: “If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.”


•So is Deuteronomy 28:1: “If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth (i.e. He will fulfill His covenant promises).”


Neo: God has never canceled His promise to Abraham that he would father a vast multitude and that his physical, obedient seed will occupy Palestine.

Yet St. Paul says clearly in Romans 8 that apostate Jews have broken God’s covenant. They can’t receive God’s covenant promises because they do not hold up their end of the bargain: giving God the faith of Abraham. Consider:

•Genesis 17:9, 18:19 and 26:5 say Abraham’s seed must keep the covenant through obedience.


•Genesis 17:14 says covenant breaking means being cut off.


•Genesis 17:19 says Jews only find covenant blessing by keeping the way of the Lord.


•Genesis 26:4 reinforces that the covenant exists because of obedience.


•Deuteronomy 1:37 details how Joshua’s obedience empowered Israel to inherit the covenant promise of occupying Canaan.


•Deuteronomy 7:12 is particularly definitive: “If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.”


•So is Deuteronomy 28:1: “If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth (i.e. He will fulfill His covenant promises).”

Neo: Ok

WT: No argument

Neo: Without Jesus' sacrifice, we would be without hope; so I don't understand what you mean.

WT: You reject baptism in water and the infilling of the Holy Spirit speaking in other tongues and the Spirit of God gives the utterance: What other salvation do propose to have? With applying the blood of Jesus in baptism you have made the death of Jesus on the cross of none effect.

 

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