Is Jesus God?

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Ok, I don't know how you tie "the promise that his efforts will never fail" with the idea of Adam's "perfection," but you're extrapolation is worthy of the Trinitarians'.

Asseveration without explanation is cheap

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Genesis chapter 3 describes one of the very most significant events in human history. In a few verses, it explains how God's beautiful purpose was assaulted by one of his own creatures.

What do you guess the human condition would be like if Adam and Eve had not sinned?

The Bible does not describe Adam and Eve sinning, Neo. They did not know the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil. They could not sin. They were set up in a sting by the god of the Bible.

Quote:

Forgiveness of our sins

All not to be taken lightly.

That is your problem, Neo. You are worried about that god forgiving your sins.

It ain't gonna happen. The god is a cartoon...and the story you are defending would be laughed at in a comic book. The god denied Adam and Eve the knowledge or right and wrong...then punished them for doing wrong.

C'mon. Stop being so afraid...and look at the story with open eyes.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Ok, I don't know how you tie "the promise that his efforts will never fail" with the idea of Adam's "perfection," but you're extrapolation is worthy of the Trinitarians'.
Asseveration without explanation is cheap

But even after "explanations" you are so afraid of the cartoon god that you will not reply reasonably.

The story of Adam and Eve EXPLAINS that the couple did not know right from wrong...and that the god of the Bible denied them the ability to know good from evil.

Then the god puts them in a situation where they were going to do something the god could consider wrong...and even though the god knew that the couple DID NOT KNOW the difference between right and wrong...

...the god punished them severely for doing wrong.

There is the explanation.

Now do something reasonable with it.

1 Reply

Quote:

Frank Apisa said: They did not understand the concept of right and wrong, Romeo. The god denied them that knowledge.
The only reason you are defending this scam...is because you fear the wrath of that monster god of yours.

Like I've said before mate, I LIKE God because he's not some wishy-washy social worker, he's TOUGH, like me! You can go find a simpering Fairy Queen to follow if you like, but include me out.

And seeing as you're still on this Adam/Eve stuff, suppose somebody came to you for golf lessons but never listened to a word you said and finished last in every match, you'd simply say "You should have listened to me!"
Same with Adam/Eve, they chose not to listen to God and got their asses handed to them.. Smile

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

But even after "explanations" you are so afraid of the cartoon god that you will not reply reasonably.

What have I to be afraid of, Frank? If either of us is wrong, we have the same eventuality: live a few more years and then - nothingness.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The story of Adam and Eve EXPLAINS that the couple did not know right from wrong...and that the god of the Bible denied them the ability to know good from evil. Then the god puts them in a situation where they were going to do something the god could consider wrong...and even though the god knew that the couple DID NOT KNOW the difference between right and wrong...

Good and bad, actually. But what part of instinct and conscience don't you understand? It must disturb you to consider the idea that God would have made Adam and Eve ready to be our perfect parents.

Frank Apisa wrote:

...the god punished them severely for doing wrong.

There is the explanation.

Now do something reasonable with it.

OK, Frank. Nothing personal here. You know I favor you as a friend. So the reasonable thing I will do to is is ridicule it as being absurd. Your assertion is equivalent to describing a master artist, a super Michelangelo, creating a beautiful work of art and then permitting his enemy to defile it. And even if the smallest part of your delusion were true, it would not explain the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 where God foretold the death of the 'serpent' and the victory of the 'seed'.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: They did not understand the concept of right and wrong, Romeo. The god denied them that knowledge.
The only reason you are defending this scam...is because you fear the wrath of that monster god of yours.

Like I've said before mate, I LIKE God because he's not some wishy-washy social worker, he's TOUGH, like me! You can go find a simpering Fairy Queen to follow if you like, but include me out.

And seeing as you're still on this Adam/Eve stuff, suppose somebody came to you for golf lessons but never listened to a word you said and finished last in every match, you'd simply say "You should have listened to me!"
Same with Adam/Eve, they chose not to listen to God and got their asses handed to them..

In the story, your god denied Adam and Eve the knowledge of what was right and wrong...what was good or evil

The the god punished them for doing wrong...for doing evil.

They did not know there was anything wrong with doing wrong.

Deal with it...and try to do so reasonably, rather than from the irrational fear of this boogeyman god.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
But even after "explanations" you are so afraid of the cartoon god that you will not reply reasonably.
What have I to be afraid of, Frank? If either of us is wrong, we have the same eventuality: live a few more years and then - nothingness.

Really. We could both be wrong or right...and all sorts of other eventualities may exist.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve EXPLAINS that the couple did not know right from wrong...and that the god of the Bible denied them the ability to know good from evil. Then the god puts them in a situation where they were going to do something the god could consider wrong...and even though the god knew that the couple DID NOT KNOW the difference between right and wrong...
Good and bad, actually. But what part of instinct and conscience don't you understand?

The part you seem to think that a conscience exists without a knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Stop, Neo.

Your arguments do not work.

The story is an absurdity...and the only reason you are not acknowledging that it is...is because you are in dread of this monstrous god.

Quote:

Quote:
It must disturb you to consider the idea that God would have made Adam and Eve ready to be our perfect parents.
Frank Apisa wrote:
...the god punished them severely for doing wrong.

It does not disturb me at all. I see it as a fairy tale being told to explain the human predicament. But the tellers of the tale screwed it up.

Quote:
There is the explanation.

Now do something reasonable with it.
OK, Frank. Nothing personal here. You know I favor you as a friend. So the reasonable thing I will do to is is ridicule it as being absurd. Your assertion is equivalent to describing a master artist, a super Michelangelo, creating a beautiful work of art and then permitting his enemy to defile it. And even if the smallest part of your delusion were true, it would not explain the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 where God foretold the death of the 'serpent' and the victory of the 'seed'.

Then why not let the couple KNOW the difference between right and wrong...KNOW the difference between good and evil?

They still could have obeyed or disobeyed as they would choose...but at least they would have the KNOWLEDGE of the difference between good and evil...between right and wrong.

Why did the god deny them that knowledge...and then punish them for doing something they did not know what wrong?

3 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank, the thing about conscience is you don't have to ruminate over whether something is good or bad. Moral behavior is automatic, instinctive. Do birds need to consult charts in order to migrate?

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank, the thing about conscience is you don't have to ruminate over whether something is good or bad. Moral behavior is automatic, instinctive. Do birds need to consult charts in order to migrate?

That is an interesting guess about conscience, Neo...and obviously offered because it help reinforce your assertions that even though Adam and Eve did not know the difference between right and wrong...they instinctively should have known the difference.

It is an absurdity, Neo.

But since your god knew they DID NOT KNOW the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil...

...why not cut them a break...rather than punishing them and all the rest of humanity for doing what they DID NOT KNOW WAS WRONG?

Your need to adhere to this faith is admirable, Neo...and you should have stayed out of the Adam and Eve thing rather than bring it up.

The story was invented by people trying to explain the human predicament...the squalor and meanness of life back then. They wanted the god to have a reason for giving them the mean life they were experiencing.

So they invented this story...and did not think it through. If they had, they would have invented a better story.

This particular story shows a mean-spirited, angry, vengeful, totally unfair god who deserves scorn and contempt...not adoration and worship. This god comes to adoration and worship only because it terrifies the people who think it an accurate description of a creator god.

I love ya, Neo. But on this one...you are way out of reasonable.

0 Replies

Quote:

Frank Apisa said to me about Adam/Eve: They did not know there was anything wrong with doing wrong..

God left it to their own commonsense to decide right from wrong, but they flunked the test.. Smile

"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)

For examp if you told me on the golf course- "Use a 5 iron for this shot, don't touch a 1-iron under any circumstances", I'd trust to your greater knowledge and use a 5.
But Adam/Eve ignored God and chose a 1-iron instead.. Smile

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said to me about Adam/Eve: They did not know there was anything wrong with doing wrong..

God left it to their own commonsense to decide right from wrong, but they flunked the test..

The god set them up in a sting...and the god flunked the test, not Adam and Eve.

First the god insured that they would not know right from wrong...and then punished them for doing what the god considered wrong.

What a schmuck.

Quote:

"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)

For examp if you told me on the golf course- "Use a 5 iron for this shot, don't touch a 1-iron under any circumstances", I'd trust to your greater knowledge and use a 5.
But Adam/Eve ignored God and chose a 1-iron instead..

[/quote]

So they ignored the god. But THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH IGNORING the god.

And the god punished them and all the rest of humankind for one error.

What a disgusting schmuck that god is.

0 Replies

Quote:

Frank Apisa said: So they ignored the god. But THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH IGNORING the god.
And the god punished them and all the rest of humankind for one error.
What a disgusting schmuck that god is.

Remember it's only a symbolic story mate to show what happens to anybody who chooses to disobey God and listen to Satan, so don't take it too literally.. Smile

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Ok, I don't know how you tie "the promise that his efforts will never fail" with the idea of Adam's "perfection," but you're extrapolation is worthy of the Trinitarians'.
Asseveration without explanation is cheap

Uh-huh.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank, the thing about conscience is you don't have to ruminate over whether something is good or bad. Moral behavior is automatic, instinctive. Do birds need to consult charts in order to migrate?

Sure, but there is a dynamic between various interests within morality and moral behavior that renders simplistic ideas of "good" and "bad" meaningless. Moral behavior is relative in regard to this dynamic.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: So they ignored the god. But THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH IGNORING the god.
And the god punished them and all the rest of humankind for one error.
What a disgusting schmuck that god is.

Remember it's only a symbolic story mate to show what happens to anybody who chooses to disobey God and listen to Satan, so don't take it too literally..

I understand that it is a fairytale, Romeo.

So why are you trying to justify it?

It is a fairytale that fails miserably.

1 Reply

Quote:

Frank Apisa said re Adam/Eve (again): I understand that it is a fairytale, Romeo.
So why are you trying to justify it? It is a fairytale that fails miserably.

Well why can't you stop talking about it?
It's just a neat little symbolic tale that warns us how Satan likes throwing a spanner in the works to mess us up if we listen to him.. Smile

SATAN - "Hmm, that apple looks yummy.."
EVE - "I'm not supposed to touch it"
SATAN - "Don't be daft, if you don't have it Adam will, and then laugh at you for being a dumb little girly, you know how men are"
EVE - "I'm forbidden to have it"
SATAN - "Hmm...Your skin looks a bit dry, fresh fruit would work wonders for your complexion"
EVE - "Leave me alone!"
SATAN - "It'll just rot if left on the tree, what a waste.."
EVE - "Shut up"
SATAN - "Apples are good for teeth, you don't want yours to turn black do you?"
EVE - "Oh be quiet!"
SATAN - "You'll get scurvy without vitamin C and your gums will puff up like a boxers gumshield"..
EVE - "Clam up!"
SATAN - "Okay okay, scuse me for breathing, none of my business if you want to end up looking like a cross between Mike Tyson and Ugly Betty"..
EVE - "Hmm okay, I'd better eat it, but don't tell anyone"
SATAN - "Sure, sure, you can trust me"..

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank,

I appreciate your position; however, you obviously have never had a relationship with this God of whom you speak. If you had you would certainly not write as you do. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend that God is evil and that He wants to put you down but the reality is that He is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance. Why is it that you continually express yourself with disgust toward Him? You are offensive and it is really clear that you have harbored ill feelings toward Him. My kind suggestion would be to try your best to find communion with Him so as to fix the broken relationship that you have with Him. He is willing to accept you now but after you die it will be too late. Consider praying this evening and telling Him how you feel-- I would imagine that He will be happy to answer you and meet you where you are. Don't spurn His mercy!

0 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: I understand that it is a fairytale, Romeo.
So why are you trying to justify it?
It is a fairytale that fails miserably.

Well why can't you stop talking about it?

I am replying to you...and other theists.

If you want to live your lives in fairytales...do so. I can comment on it when you do it in public.

Quote:

It's just a neat little story that demonstrates how Satan likes throwing a spanner in the works to mess us up..

It is anything but a "neat little story." It is a story that shows a god that is out-of-control...and willing to inflict extremely harsh punishment on anyone who crosses it in any way...whether justified or not.

That apparently is why people like you defend the story...sucking up to a monster.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Oh, come on! Frank. Being that God told them not to eat of that tree and that if they did they would die, how would they not know that disobeying him was wrong. He order them not to eat of it, and they knew that if they did they were disobeying and that was sin.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

He told them that if they disobeyed that they would die. That is telling them that it would be wrong if they disobeyed. They knew better.

1 Reply

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