Is Jesus God?

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The idea that Adam and Eve "sinned" is an absuqrdity. They did something the god considered wrong or evil...but they had been denied the knowledge of the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil.

The part of the story that has them sinning...is so absurd, it is incredible that anyone buys into it.

The notion that there is a god that will forgive humans their sins...but only if they first torture and kill someone (especially the god's son) is similarly absurd.

Apparently the meaning associated with Adam and Eve having been created perfect has escaped you.

Apparently the point of the story that the couple WERE DENIED THE KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG...escapes you.

Very convenient for you, Neo.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Where's Steve McQueen when you need him?

Frank Apisa wrote:

The idea that Adam and Eve "sinned" is an absuqrdity. They did something the god considered wrong or evil...but they had been denied the knowledge of the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil.

The part of the story that has them sinning...is so absurd, it is incredible that anyone buys into it.

The notion that there is a god that will forgive humans their sins...but only if they first torture and kill someone (especially the god's son) is similarly absurd.

neologist wrote:

Apparently the meaning associated with Adam and Eve having been created perfect has escaped you.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Apparently the point of the story that the couple WERE DENIED THE KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG...escapes you.

Very convenient for you, Neo.

Apparently the notion that a perfect individual would have been bestowed with a perfect conscience and would, therefore, have no need to ruminate over each decision re good or bad, has escaped you.

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Where's Steve McQueen when you need him?
Frank Apisa wrote:
The idea that Adam and Eve "sinned" is an absuqrdity. They did something the god considered wrong or evil...but they had been denied the knowledge of the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil.

The part of the story that has them sinning...is so absurd, it is incredible that anyone buys into it.

The notion that there is a god that will forgive humans their sins...but only if they first torture and kill someone (especially the god's son) is similarly absurd.

neologist wrote:
Apparently the meaning associated with Adam and Eve having been created perfect has escaped you.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Apparently the point of the story that the couple WERE DENIED THE KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG...escapes you.

Very convenient for you, Neo.
Apparently the notion that a perfect individual would have been bestowed with a perfect conscience and would, therefore, have no need to ruminate over each decision re good or bad, has escaped you.

The point of the story, NEo...is that they were denied the ability to differ between right and wrong.

If they actually could tell the difference between right and wrong...what the hell difference would it make to deny them the right to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

The only way to make this story make sense...is to go into that "perfect" nonsense...so that you do not have to see the story for the fraud that it is.

You should be able to see that, but your fear of the monster god is clouding your mind.

No problem.

I understand.

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@neologist,

Where do you extrapolate the meaning that Adam and Eve were created perfect?

This is reminiscent of Trinity extrapolation.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Deuteronomy 32:4 says all of God's works are perfect. Add that to Jehovah's declaration at the end of the sixth day that his work wad 'good'. The scriptures fit the claim.

Additionally, as I have previously asserted, the name Jehovah is, in itself, a promise that his efforts will never fail.

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Deuteronomy 32:4 says all of God's works are perfect. Add that to Jehovah's declaration at the end of the sixth day that his work wad 'good'. The scriptures fit the claim.

Additionally, as I have previously asserted, the name Jehovah is, in itself, a promise that his efforts will never fail.

Hell of a promise, Neo.

Seems it did "fail"....big time.

Probably because of the "garden of eden" sting.

The story tells us directly that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil. Your god of the Bible tells us that also.

There was no sin. There was a sting. It sucked.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

There was no sin. There was a sting. It sucked.... ..

If you say so, Frank. In that case, the stinger was not Jehovah. but the identity behind the serpent.

1 Reply

@MWal,

Quote:

The Passive man God.

So who is this passive submissive, acquiescent, unresisting, unassertive, compliant, pliant, obedient, docile, tractable, malleable, pliable God?

1 Reply

@Enaj,

Passive-good confident assertive peace safe God?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
There was no sin. There was a sting. It sucked.... ..
If you say so, Frank. In that case, the stinger was not Jehovah. but the identity behind the serpent.

The serpent did not put Adam and Eve in the Garden...and the serpent did not put that tree in the center of the garden...and the serpent did not allow itself to be there to tempt the couple.

Your god did that.

THAT WAS THE STING.

Your god was the "stinger."

Question: Who or what was the "identity behing the serpent?"

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Beats me why people are obsessed with the Adam/Eve thing, seeing it's only pure metaphor, analogy and symbology.
Its message is simple- Obey God and you'll be alright, but disobey him and you'll be in a world o' hurt.
In other words, Adam/Eve were put to the test to see if they'd listen to God who said "Don't eat that fruit!" or to Satan (the snake) who said "Go on, have it!".
They chose to listen to Satan and flunked the test. Smile

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Beats me why people are obsessed with the Adam/Eve thing, seeing it's only pure metaphor, analogy and symbology.
Its message is simple- Obey God and you'll be alright, but disobey him and you'll be in a world o' hurt.
In other words, Adam/Eve were put to the test to see if they'd listen to God who said "Don't eat that fruit!" or to Satan (the snake) who said "Go on, have it!".
They chose to listen to Satan and flunked the test.

Try waking up and thinking about it, Romeo.

They were denied the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. They had no idea whatever that not listening to the god...was wrong. THEY WERE DENIED THAT KNOWLEDGE.

The analogy is an absurdity...but I understand people like you have to defend it...because of your fears of the monster.

1 Reply

Quote:

Frank Apisa said about Adam/Eve: They were denied the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. They had no idea whatever that not listening to the god...was wrong. THEY WERE DENIED THAT KNOWLEDGE. The analogy is an absurdity...but I understand people like you have to defend it...because of your fears of the monster.

As a kid, I was watching a thunderstorm raging nearby with my nose pressed up against the windowpane, and my dad yelled "GET AWAY FROM THERE!"
"Why?" I asked, and he replied "BECAUSE I SAY SO, THAT'S WHY!"

I got away of course, but was puzzled why I had to.
As I got older I realised he was worried in case I attracted lightning to me and the house.
Same with Adam and Eve, God yelled "DON'T EAT THAT FRUIT!", but they chose to ignore him and got zapped.. Smile

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said about Adam/Eve: They were denied the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. They had no idea whatever that not listening to the god...was wrong. THEY WERE DENIED THAT KNOWLEDGE. The analogy is an absurdity...but I understand people like you have to defend it...because of your fears of the monster.

As a kid, I was watching a thunderstorm raging nearby with my nose pressed up against the windowpane, and my dad yelled "GET AWAY FROM THERE!"
"Why?" I asked, and he replied "BECAUSE I SAY SO, THAT'S WHY!"

I got away of course, but was puzzled why I had to.
As I got older I realised he was worried in case I attracted lightning to me and the house.
Same with Adam and Eve, God yelled "DON'T EAT THAT FRUIT!", but they chose to ignore him and got zapped..

Well...if you had disobeyed and your father had taken an ax and hacked you to death for that...then there might be some sort of analogy.

But you didn't and he didn't.

The god denied Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil. They had NO WAY to know that it was wrong or evil to disobey.

But the god set them up where they almost certainly would disobey ...and then punished them and all the rest of humankind for disobeying.

Gimme a break, Romeo. Even you should be offended by this absurd story.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Beats me why people are obsessed with the Adam/Eve thing, seeing it's only pure metaphor, analogy and symbology.

It is convenient for you to claim metaphor as it allows you to ignore the issues raised in Genesis chapter 3 as well as the sentences levied on Adam, that he would return to dust, and on the serpent, that he would be bruised in the head by the 'seed', namely Jesus.

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Its message is simple- Obey God and you'll be alright, but disobey him and you'll be in a world o' hurt.

Correct, as far as you go.

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

In other words, Adam/Eve were put to the test .. . .

But the test did not come from God.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Beats me why people are obsessed with the Adam/Eve thing, seeing it's only pure metaphor, analogy and symbology.
It is convenient for you to claim metaphor as it allows you to ignore the issues raised in Genesis chapter 3 as well as the sentences levied on Adam, that he would return to dust, and on the serpent, that he would be bruised in the head by the 'seed', namely Jesus.
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Its message is simple- Obey God and you'll be alright, but disobey him and you'll be in a world o' hurt.
Correct, as far as you go.
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
In other words, Adam/Eve were put to the test .. . .
But the test did not come from God.

The test came from the god of the Bible...and the god of the Bible ended up testing itself...not Adam and Eve. They were just pawns...in a sting.

The test showed the god to be a failure, Neo.

The situation was rigged...to the point where an average fifth grader would be able to predict how that supposed test of Adam and Eve would turn out.

The god then had the chance to make everything right...and forgive the couple for doing nothing seriously wrong.

But he couldn't...because the purpose of the fable was to explain why humans live in the predicament they do.

They had to lose...and the inventors of the fable thought they had set it up for the god to win.

Boy...were they ever wrong.

Now if you could only use the story to bring some common sense to this "faith" thingy of yours...some good could come of it.

1 Reply

Quote:

Frank Apisa said: The god denied Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil. They had NO WAY to know that it was wrong or evil to disobey.
But the god set them up where they almost certainly would disobey ...and then punished them and all the rest of humankind for disobeying.

1- God TOLD them beforehand that it'd be wrong if they chose to disobey him.
2- He didn't set them up, he gave them FREE WILL and they chose to listen to Satan.. Wink

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said: The god denied Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil. They had NO WAY to know that it was wrong or evil to disobey.
But the god set them up where they almost certainly would disobey ...and then punished them and all the rest of humankind for disobeying.

1- God TOLD them beforehand that it'd be wrong if they chose to disobey him.

They did not understand the concept of right and wrong, Romeo. The god denied them that knowledge.

The only reason you are defending this scam...is because you fear the wrath of that monster god of yours.

Quote:

2- He didn't set them up, he gave them FREE WILL and they chose to listen to Satan..

The god set them up...or more correctly, the people who invented this absurd explanation of the human predicament set them up.

Pathetic.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Genesis chapter 3 describes one of the very most significant events in human history. In a few verses, it explains how God's beautiful purpose was assaulted by one of his own creatures.

What do you guess the human condition would be like if Adam and Eve had not sinned? Might you agree they would not have died and would still be with us? No death . . . No sickness. . . Not a bad deal, in my opinion. Not robots, either. . .

How many words do you think would have been sufficient to completely explain the attitudes and motivations at work in the temptation? Remember, Adam had been alive long enough to name the animals; he must have had some reasoning ability just from using his powers of observation. And why would the 'serpent' challenge God in the first place, knowing God had the power to zap him out of existence.

I often use texts from the rest of the bible to cast light on the story. Remember when 'the tempter' offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for an act of worship to him? And remember when Satan claimed to God in Job, chapter 2 that 'a man' (any man) would curse God if things did not go his way? In other words, he impugned the integrity of us all, saying we would do right only out of selfishness. Does that appy to you, Frank? Is your integrity for sale? Regardless of whether you believe, I cannot imagine that as part of your character. So how does his accusation about you make you feel?

What I'm saying is the issues raised in Genesis are far more profound than a mere allegory about obedience. These are the central issues of the universe, embodied, BTW, in the prayer Jesus taught in Matthew, chapter 5, namely:
The hallowing, or sanctifying of God's name,
The Kingdom,
God's will, or purpose being achieved on earth
. . . .
Forgiveness of our sins

All not to be taken lightly.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Deuteronomy 32:4 says all of God's works are perfect. Add that to Jehovah's declaration at the end of the sixth day that his work wad 'good'. The scriptures fit the claim.

Additionally, as I have previously asserted, the name Jehovah is, in itself, a promise that his efforts will never fail.

Ok, I don't know how you tie "the promise that his efforts will never fail" with the idea of Adam's "perfection," but you're extrapolation is worthy of the Trinitarians'.

1 Reply

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