Is Jesus God?

@Frank Apisa,

I can appreciate your side of things; however, I am not guessing at all. That is why I used the term in my heart (better said soul or the center of the conscience). I have experienced God on a grand scale in my life and thus I would be a fool to say that I am guessing. This is a know-so relationship with all the proofs that follow those that believe. I have experienced supernatural healing and a supernatural infilling of the HOLY SPIRIT as the scripture says.
I understand that you think I am "fudging" to use your word, but I am not lying at all. That is the difference between the relationship that you had with God and the one that I have with HIM. Perhaps you never experienced Him and thus feel as you do. Are you not willing to try Him again? Was it such a bad experience that you will never try to seek Him again?

Let's just suppose that you were to accept the scripture as the Holy Word of GOD, then you would indeed need to ask Him to give you HIS Spirit as He did to those in ACTS 2. This is what I have experienced; therefore , it is hard for me to understand your logic that I am not being truthful.

I would in no way doubt what you tell me--you have been honest and thus I accept you at your word. Why cannot you do the same to me? You would admit that everyone can experience different happenings in his/her life and just because it did not happen to you does not make it a lie.

1 Reply

@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

I can appreciate your side of things; however, I am not guessing at all. That is why I used the term in my heart (better said soul or the center of the conscience). I have experienced God on a grand scale in my life and thus I would be a fool to say that I am guessing. This is a know-so relationship with all the proofs that follow those that believe. I have experienced supernatural healing and a supernatural infilling of the HOLY SPIRIT as the scripture says.
I understand that you think I am "fudging" to use your word, but I am not lying at all. That is the difference between the relationship that you had with God and the one that I have with HIM. Perhaps you never experienced Him and thus feel as you do. Are you not willing to try Him again? Was it such a bad experience that you will never try to seek Him again?

Let's just suppose that you were to accept the scripture as the Holy Word of GOD, then you would indeed need to ask Him to give you HIS Spirit as He did to those in ACTS 2. This is what I have experienced; therefore , it is hard for me to understand your logic that I am not being truthful.

I would in no way doubt what you tell me--you have been honest and thus I accept you at your word. Why cannot you do the same to me? You would admit that everyone can experience different happenings in his/her life and just because it did not happen to you does not make it a lie.

In another thread, I am having an in-depth discussion with someone else who has "experienced" the kind of thing you say you have. (A quite different one...but related on many planes)

My question to that person was: How do you know you are not deluding yourself...how do you know it (the supposed experience) is not an illusion?

I ask you the same question...and even offer a hint: YOU CANNOT KNOW IT IS NOT AN ILLUSION...YOU CANNOT KNOW YOU ARE NOT DELUDING YOURSELF.

You can guess that you are not.

I have no problem with either of you guessing in the process...but to suggest there is anything other than guessing going on...IS ITSELF A GUESS.

You may be correct in your guesses; he may be correct in his; both of you may be correct...but it is at least possible that one or both of you are dead wrong.

All you can do is to guess.

Why not simply acknowledge what is so obvious?

He seems reluctant to do it because he places lots of value in meditation...and the "truths" revealed during the meditation experience.

You seem reluctant to do so because...well...just because. I do not know why. Perhaps you fear how the god will react to you acknowledging that all you are doing is to guess about its existence...about what it expects of humans...and about what pleases or offends it.

Thank you for this response, WT. Let's just let this lie for a bit. We can both reflect on what has been said so far...and who knows where that will lead.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

agreed

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@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

Infra,

Let me ask you a few simple honest questions:

Why are you so vehement about the non existence of GOD?

I'm not vehement about the non-existence of God. I don't know if God exists. I don't believe in God.

worldtraveler24 wrote:

Why is it that it appears that you hate the idea that a God would exist?

If you're getting what appears to you that I hate the idea that a God would exist from my assessment of the Bible then you're jumping to conclusions. I certainly don't believe in the God of the Bible. I don't hate the idea that a God would exist.

worldtraveler24 wrote:

Who is it that taught you that there is no GOD?

That's a presumptuous question. See my response to your first question.

worldtraveler24 wrote:

If there is no GOD why waste your time discussing it with those that do believe?

It's an interesting subject regardless of whether God exists or not.

worldtraveler24 wrote:

Why do you even bother to convince others that there is not GOD?

That's another presumptuous question. In these discussions about the God of the Bible, I like to point out the inconsistencies in the Bible, like those that lead to the differing interpretations between believers, like yours and neo's, for example.

Why are you so presumptuous?

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Infra,

Thanks for your honesty. I was in no wise trying to be presumptuous. It appears by the spirit and attitude that you write that you are against the GOD of the Bible. If I misunderstood your posts I do apologize. I don't want to put words in your mouth: I am sure you can voice you own opinion without my help; however, perhaps if you were to reassess the words you use maybe we would get a different impression.

Now on to your response, you state that you "don't know if God exists". This is honest and quite convincing; but, then you say you don't believe in God.
If you are looking for evidence that God exists keep searching because HE indeed exists--If you simply don't believe because you have already made the conclusion that there is no God then that is a different story.

Making a final reference to your response to my questions: You state:

"you're getting what appears to you that I hate the idea that a God would exist from my assessment of the Bible then you're jumping to conclusions. I certainly don't believe in the God of the Bible. I don't hate the idea that a God would exist."

What kind of God would be your ideal God if He/She were to exist?

Keep in mind that I am not here to bash you or make light of what you believe or you don't believe; however, this thread is about whether Jesus is God. This title is making the assumption that a God already exists and therefore we are simply trying to define if Jesus is this God of who we know already is in existence.

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Quote:

Infrablue said: I like to point out the inconsistencies in the Bible, like those that lead to the differing interpretations between believers.

Eyewitnesses (for example to road traffic accidents) see things from different angles, that's all.
And the fact that nobody has ever tried to edit out the Bible's inconsistencies over the centuries to make it look squeaky-clean PROVES we can trust it.. Smile

As for peoples different interpretations, most disagreements are only about minor unimportant things, but they ALL agree that the core principle of Christianity is impossible to misinterpret or misunderstand, namely-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Jesus refers to the father (God) in third person so that there's at least some difference between the two. Bottom line, Jesus is at least spirit-world royalty of some sort.

There are degrees of believing in something and the highest form of belief is belief that you could defend something in a formal debate. The most major story of the New Testament is the resurrection; I am quite certain I could defend that in a formal debate and win.

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

By way of contrast, I might personally believe the story of Jesus and Peter walking on water or the story of feeding a multitude with one fish, but I could not hope to defend one of those stories in a formal debate.

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Peter tried to walk to Jesus across the water, but the gospels don't make it clear whether he instantly sank as he stepped off the boat, or managed a few steps before sinking.
As for Jesus walking on water, he did it in the dead of night and fully intended to pass by the boat without them seeing him, but they did see him and freaked out thinking he was a ghost.
In fact each miracle is fascinating as they're often different-

The 37 MIRACLES OF JESUS http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."- John 10:38
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death

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@worldtraveler24,

Why not just quote the entire Bible? I'm sorry if I don't have time to consider everything you posted. I'll take just a few and this one first:

You quoted Colossians 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

Read the whole passage:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist (Colossians 1:14-18)

There is more showing Jesus' existence prior to his taking human form. None of it equates him with his father. In fact, all of it shows him to be a creation of his father, albeit the first creation.

You quoted Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (parentheticals removed)

Actually, there were more than just Jesus and his father at this time.
“4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause" (Job 38: 4-7)

You quoted John 8:58 - "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Apparently you also did not read my reference to Proverbs chapter 8.

You cited Isaiah 9:6- is so plainly stated (see below) How can you refute that the child that will be prophetically born IS GOD--"Emanuel GOD WITH US?"

God is with is in the same way as recorded in Zechariah 8: 23 In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”

The relationship between God and his son is essential to understanding the value of Jesus' sacrifice. If we assume God is actually Jesus, we give credence to Satan's allegation that no intelligent being would serve God, except out of selfishness. We all can empathize with the grief Abraham must have felt when asked to sacrifice Isaac. The lie of a "godhead" converts the story into an account of depraved credulity. The entire Jewish system of temple sacrifice, that of offering perfect animals and first fruits becomes relegated to primitive superstition.

Your lack of understanding only makes sense in the light of what you may have been taught by otherwise well meaning individuals. But sooner or later you must come to grips with the truth.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Infrablue said: I like to point out the inconsistencies in the Bible, like those that lead to the differing interpretations between believers.

Eyewitnesses (for example to road traffic accidents) see things from different angles, that's all.

These interpreters aren't eyewitnesses, though. They're interpreting what's already been written.

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

And the fact that nobody has ever tried to edit out the Bible's inconsistencies over the centuries to make it look squeaky-clean PROVES we can trust it..

That the Bible's been redacted over the centuries is one thing, that it was or wasn't redacted for "squeaky-cleanliness" is another.

Trust it for what, exactly?

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

As for peoples different interpretations, most disagreements are only about minor unimportant things..

Yeah, try telling that to someone like neo.

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

...but they ALL agree that the core principle of Christianity is impossible to misinterpret or misunderstand, namely-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

Do they?

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@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

What kind of God would be your ideal God if He/She were to exist?

My ideal God would leave things exactly as they are.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Then you have your request granted! God is leaving everything as it has been. No worries on our part!

1 Reply

@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

Now on to your response, you state that you "don't know if God exists". This is honest and quite convincing; but, then you say you don't believe in God.
If you are looking for evidence that God exists keep searching because HE indeed exists--If you simply don't believe because you have already made the conclusion that there is no God then that is a different story.

How can you logically assert that, WT?

It is almost certain that it is nothing more than a guess on your part. Why not be honest...and present it as a guess?

How do you know it is a "He?"

How do you know it is a personal god?

How do you know what it expects of humans?

How do you know what pleases it...and what offends it?

Almost certainly all those questions can only be answered in a variation on:

"Because I guess that the Bible tells me there is a God; the Bible tells me what the god is like; what it expects of humans; what pleases it; what offends it. And I guess that the Bible is correct...even though it was written by relatively unsophisticated; relatively unknowledgeable; superstitious, primitive ancient people."

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No offence to our atheist and agnostic friends, but their suspicions border on the paranoid.. Wink

"Paranoid personality disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis characterized by a long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder

For example this is their view of the Bible-
Genesis- LIES!
Exodus- LIES!
Leviticus- LIES!
Numbers- LIES!
Deuteronomy-LIES!
Joshua- LIES!
Judges-LIES!
Ruth-LIES!
1 Samuel-LIES!
2 Samuel- LIES!
1 Kings- LIES!
2 Kings- LIES!
1 Chronicles-LIES!
2 Chronicles-LIES!
Ezra- LIES!
Nehemiah-LIES!
Esther-LIES!
Job-LIES!
Psalms-LIES!
Proverbs-LIES!
Ecclesiastes-LIES!
Song of Solomon-LIES!
Isaiah-LIES!
Jeremiah-LIES!
Lamentations-LIES!
Ezekiel- LIES!
Daniel- LIES!
Hosea- LIES!
Joel-LIES!
Amos-LIES!
Obadiah-LIES!
Jonah-LIES!
Micah-LIES!
Nahum-LIES!
Habakkuk-LIES!
Zephaniah-LIES!
Haggai-LIES!
Zecharia-LIES!
Malachi-LIES!
Matthew-LIES!
Mark-LIES!
Luke-LIES!
John- LIES!
The Acts-LIES!
Romans-LIES!
1 Corinthians-LIES!
2 Corinthians- LIES!
Galatians-LIES!
Ephesians- LIES!
Phillipians-LIES!
Colossians-LIES!
1 Thessalonians-LIES!
2 Thessalonians-LIES!
1 Timothy-LIES!
2 Timothy-LIES!
Titus-LIES!
Philemon- LIES!
Hebrews- LIES!
James-LIES!
1 Peter-LIES!
2 Peter- LIES!
1 John- LIES!
2 John-LIES!
3 John-LIES!
Jude-LIES!
Revelation-LIES!

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Quote:

Romeo said: As for peoples different interpretations, most disagreements are only about minor unimportant things..
Infrablue said: Yeah, try telling that to someone like neo.

Admittedly he and his JW chums think Christmas trees, Easter eggs, birthday cakes, crucifixes and church spires are evil, but that's not important on the cosmic scale of things and I daresay God will cut them some slack.
But whether God will overlook the fact that they let each other die for want of transfusions is another matter entirely, only he can judge.. Wink

1 Reply

@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

Then you have your request granted! God is leaving everything as it has been. No worries on our part!

Woo-Hoo!

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo wrote:

As for peoples different interpretations, most disagreements are only about minor unimportant things..

Infrablue wrote:

Yeah, try telling that to someone like neo.

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Admittedly he and his JW chums think Christmas trees, Easter eggs, birthday cakes, crucifixes and church spires are evil, but that's not important on the cosmic scale of things and I daresay God will cut them some slack.
But whether God will overlook the fact that they let each other die for want of transfusions is another matter entirely, only he can judge..(smarmy emoticon removed)

Well flip my flapjacks, Romeo! What will God say to those Catholics from the USA who killed Catholics from Germany in WWII? Or the Lutherans from Britain who killed their German brothers? For that matter, there were Catholics killing Catholics in Rwanda and members of other religions killed while taking refuge in their churches. All the while the Witnesses (and precious few others) risked their lives sparing all who they could.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Romeo,

I love you brother but I have to agree with NEO. I think murder is murder and there is no justification for it. I personally am not catholic so I don't believe in Christmas trees either. It is a pagan holiday that was establish by the catholic church. Easter eggs are definitely pagan in origin as well. Birthday cakes --I love to eat them but we are really not to esteem one day higher than another. The crucifix is a universal sign for Christianity although most who wear or display that cross have never died out to the flesh in order to be associated with the cross. It becomes a hypocritical display and an open mockery of the suffering of Jesus.

As far as doctrinal issues, I see that most protestants and Catholics are not too far in their belief system. The early Church on the other hand did not believe or teach a Trinity, nor baptism in the titles nor penitence, no light candles nor agree with paganism. The early church would not recognize the modern hybrid day church of today as there are no miracles; no one lives above sin--they prefer to live in it. The list goes on.

Until we go back a study what the early church believed and taught we will continue in our false doctrine.

1 Reply

@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

Romeo,

I love you brother but I have to agree with NEO. I think murder is murder and there is no justification for it. I personally am not catholic so I don't believe in Christmas trees either. It is a pagan holiday that was establish by the catholic church. Easter eggs are definitely pagan in origin as well. Birthday cakes --I love to eat them but we are really not to esteem one day higher than another. The crucifix is a universal sign for Christianity although most who wear or display that cross have never died out to the flesh in order to be associated with the cross. It becomes a hypocritical display and an open mockery of the suffering of Jesus.

As far as doctrinal issues, I see that most protestants and Catholics are not too far in their belief system. The early Church on the other hand did not believe or teach a Trinity, nor baptism in the titles nor penitence, no light candles nor agree with paganism. The early church would not recognize the modern hybrid day church of today as there are no miracles; no one lives above sin--they prefer to live in it. The list goes on.

Until we go back a study what the early church believed and taught we will continue in our false doctrine.

You apparently are wedded to "false doctrine."

If there is a GOD...that GOD gave you a brain, WT.

Use it. Stop with this farce. If there is a GOD...what you think the GOD is like...is an unnecessary and unacceptable insult to IT.

2 Replies

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