Is Jesus God?

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa grouchily said to me: And people like you want to be the arbiter of what is and is not a fake god!S
What a joke that is in itself.

Jesus did things to demonstrate God's awesome power working through him that even your Zeus would be hard pressed to do..

"Even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" ( John 10:38)

The 37 MIRACLES OF JESUS
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death

http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html

Part of the joke is that because ancient, superstitious people said he did things like "cast out demons and dirty spirits"...there are people today who are willing to accept as fact that he did. Part of the joke is that because ancient, superstitious people said he did things like cure and heal lepers, maniacs, blind people, deaf people, dumb people...there are people today willing to accept as fact that he did. Part of the joke is that because ancient, superstitious people said he did things like walk on water, feed many with little, and bring people back to life...there are people today willing to accept as fact that he did.

YOU are part of the joke that WorldTraveler is not getting, Romeo.

Congratulations.

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Quote:

Frank Apisa's grouchy mood continues with: ..ancient, superstitious people said he did things like "cast out demons and dirty spirits"...there are people today who are willing to accept as fact that he did.
YOU are part of the joke that WorldTraveler is not getting, Romeo.

How many eyewitnesses would you like mate?
Jesus didn't skulk in some underground hideout, he travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the Roman garrison, that's a lot of eyeballs .. Smile

“I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two gigs alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13)

"Jesus went through all the towns and villages" (Matt 9:35)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/8tcvFA_zps97b45f50.jpg~original

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@worldtraveler24,

You obviously do not understand " my way of thinking" as you go on to tell me what I believe which is mostly wrong. And then want me to address those wrongs. Do not tell me what I believe. I already know what my beliefs are. Its insulting to have had done to me.

Also, I have read the entire book of John many times, in addition to the whole bible. My suggestion for you would be you should read scripture other than just John. I do understand John 1:1 onward. Do you?

Your suggestion that I must understand that Jesus is fully man and fully God to understand scripture is out of line since by stating this you are implying that I do not understand scripture. This too is insulting when you can not possibly know this since you do not know me. Stay with the topic, and discussion of scripture only.

I would like to know why you did not address the verses that I gave you? Is it because you can not reconcile them with John 1 ? Therefore, it is easier to ignore them?

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@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

I sincerely appreciate your response and dedication. I just simply cannot agree with what you are saying. It seems that your only defense is about Satan's allegations in Job. This has nothing to do with Jesus as the Perfect sacrifice. Are you implying that Jesus was among the Sons of God ? I am sorry but I don't follow your proof nor your thought process. There were no creatures worthy that is why God created Himself a body--Read Hebrews 10 5: -7 .

Quote:

(Hebrews 10:5-7) 5 Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ 7 Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’”

What if the messiah had said "I am come to do my will . . . "?
All of God's loyal angels were and are perfect. Jesus, as his first creation was perfect. All that was needed to redeem us was for a perfect human to die in Adam's place. But Satan opened other issues apart from man's acquired imperfection, particularly that none of God's creatures would serve him, except out of selfishness. This issue could only be resolved by one of God's creatures. Any angel could have, and no doubt would have, been willing to take a slave's form and live a perfect human life; but Satan demanded the best. Jesus was more than willing to give.

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@worldtraveler24,

Quote:

I sincerely appreciate your response and dedication. I just simply cannot agree with what you are saying. It seems that your only defense is about Satan's allegations in Job. This has nothing to do with Jesus as the Perfect sacrifice. Are you implying that Jesus was among the Sons of God ? I am sorry but I don't follow your proof nor your thought process. There were no creatures worthy that is why God created Himself a body--Read Hebrews 10 5: -7 .

Hebrews 10:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

It say...."but a body thou prepared me:

Where does this say that God prepared himself a body? It doesn't.

In fact he follows it with this...."I come..........to do thy will, O God.

1 Reply

@Enaj,

Enaj,

No one is trying to insult anyone. I apologize to you for offending you. I am not implying that you have no understanding of the scriptures. I am simply stating that if you or anyone else for that matter wants to see Jesus as GOD you must understand His deity and His humanity. That is what I meant to say.

I am not always good with words but I have a full understanding of who Jesus is. I am simply saying that if you can look past the humanity and see the deity you would understand what the terminology is declaring.

Additionally, I am not trying to ignore anything you have presented. Present your scriptures again and I will respond. Quite frankly, I don't know what you believe because you are right I don't know you. And besides keep in mind that I am not here to bash anyone or humiliate anyone. I thought we all understood that we are all seeking truth and a sensible discussion of who Jesus is. Am I correct?

What I cannot understand is how you would think that I am insulting you. I really from my heart apologize. I am sure you have an extensive understanding and I am thankful for that. I just feel that we differ substantially on who Jesus is. That does not make you or me ignorant and unlearned. It makes me feel bad inside when I feel that I have offended you--that was not my intention. Forgive me.

As far as the scripture is concerned about Jesus I just wish I could convey to you the separation of the flesh and the Spirit and the indivisibility of the Eternal Spirit.

I really have a few honest questions for you: Do you believe in One GOD? or a Triune Godhead? Do you believe that when you get to heaven you will see three Gods, Father , Son, and Holy Ghost? DO you believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of the Eternal Spirit or is he a demi god, or is He just a human who was gracious enough to accept the role of sacrifice for our sins? I am interested in what you believe because you are correct I have no idea at this point. thanks for your response.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
PS- here's some feedback from people around the net over the past 11 years (my name is Mick)- ...
It's a bit twisted that you actually took the time to save all those.
For a minute, I was jealous.

Don't worry Neo, you're twisted too Smile

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

Yeah?!
Well, you're a Patriots fan . . . . .

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@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

. . . I really have a few honest questions for you: Do you believe in One GOD? or a Triune Godhead? Do you believe that when you get to heaven you will see three Gods, Father , Son, and Holy Ghost? DO you believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of the Eternal Spirit or is he a demi god, or is He just a human who was gracious enough to accept the role of sacrifice for our sins? I am interested in what you believe because you are correct I have no idea at this point. thanks for your response.

> One God, the creator, whose name means "he who causes to become'
> God's firstborn, the master worker of Proverbs chapter 8, the word of John 1:1, known to us as Jesus, whose name means "Jehovah's salvation"
> The holy spirit is not a person, but a force.
> Those who go to heaven will rule as kings and priests over the earth (Revelation 20:6)
> Meaning, of course, the earth will continue to be inhabited according to God's purpose as stated in the first chapters of Genesis.
> The expression 'demi god' does not appear in the scriptures. Did you mean 'angel'?

1 Reply

@neologist,

I don't think we are too far away in our belief. I just see Jesus as the embodiment of the Eternal Spirit. Are you a witness?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

worldtraveler24 wrote:
John 1: 1
The first verse emphatically states that the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD. How do you dispute that?
Try reading other translations or scanning the Greek text. You will find the proof that Jesus is not referred to by the same expression as his father. In fact, he is a god or divine

Those translations are minority ones. Most translations read, "and the word was God."

Strong's Concordance reads, "and God was the word."

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@InfraBlue,

It is pretty obvious who Jesus is when you read those translations! JESUS IS GOD!

1 Reply

@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

It is pretty obvious who Jesus is when you read those translations! JESUS IS GOD!

To be accurate, those words do not make it obvious that Jesus is God.

At best, they make it accurate that the people who wrote them think Jesus is God.

Big difference...and one worth considering.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

John 1: 1
The first verse emphatically states that the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD. How do you dispute that?

neologist wrote:

Try reading other translations or scanning the Greek text. You will find the proof that Jesus is not referred to by the same expression as his father. In fact, he is a god or divine

InfraBlue wrote:

Those translations are minority ones. Most translations read, "and the word was God."

Strong's Concordance reads, "and God was the word."

Words used to express God and Jesus in John 1:1:

Quote:

τον o,ra {ho}
1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

θεον, qeoV,n {theh'-os}
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) the Godhead, trinity 2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity 2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity 2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity 3) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judge

Note the definite article and spelling of the name θεον

Quote:

θεος qeoV,n {theh'-os}
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) the Godhead, trinity 2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity 2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity 2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity 3) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

Note the expression "general", meaning "generic" and spelling of the name θεος.

Source: http://www.gospel-john.com/greek/chapter-1.html

The trinity made sense to the pagans. But it is not supported by the bible.

1 Reply

@neologist,

The definite article, τὸν, isn't used in that part of the quote and neither is the accusative case, θεον, "Theon." Instead the word θεος, "Theos," is used which is the nominative case of the noun which means "God." Its primary meaning is "God," secondarily it means "a God."

That the trinity made sense to the pagans is irrelevant to the fact that most translations use the primary meaning of the word θεος.

Your reading would imply more than one God.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Your reading would imply more than one God.

No. One God and one divinity.
The God and a god.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I see your approach--I would agree with your logic.

1 Reply

@worldtraveler24,

worldtraveler24 wrote:

I see your approach--I would agree with your logic.

Thank you, Traveler.

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@InfraBlue,

Pagans were a lot more tolerant of other people's religions, travellers would pray at the shrines of gods other than their own. Monotheistic religions are incredibly intolerant even when they claim to worship the same god, look at what's going on in Iraq now.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

No doubt, that is why Constantine married the church with the world--thus the Catholic Church was derived.

The early church never believed in a triune godhead. They knew Jesus personally and knew that He was GOD. That is why Peter commanded all believers to be baptized in the Name of Jesus (ACTS 2:38) and not the titles father, son and holy ghost. There is no record historical or Biblical of any believers in the early church before the 3rd century who were baptized in the titles; but there are several accounts of baptism in JESUS NAME!

Neo,

I see that you are a witness--I studied with the witnesses for awhile and was impressed with their understanding of the scriptures except for this very issue. Most witnesses deny the deity of Jesus as you are but there are numerous scriptures that prove His deity. I won't go into them but there is one that is so obvious that you have to deny the scripture if you don't see it.

Read John 20:28. Thomas said he would not believe until he thrust his hand into His side and his fingers in the nail prints. Once Jesus appeared and gave Thomas the opportunity, Thomas's comment was "MY LORD AND MY GOD! Please explain how you can skip this scripture ?

It is an evidential case that Jesus claimed to be God and was crucified for it. Then He proved He was God by raising Himself from the dead.

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