19
   

Scaring the crap out of a bunch of kids for no reason.

 
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 05:49 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The reason for all the hysteria over school shootings is because Obama decided to try to use the issue as a tool for attacking America's freedom.

No, oralloy, the hysteria, and concern, is due to the fact that children have wound up dead, in school, a place where they should be safe. And it goes back as least as far as Columbine, long before Obama was President.

The deaths of all those very young children last year was particularly unbearable. But another similar tragedy could have happened in Georgia two days ago--a man with an AK-47 and 500 rounds of ammo did get into an elementary school. So people aren't just reacting to fantasies--such things are, unfortunately, happening, and it has nothing to do with Obama.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 06:10 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
How many children died in school fires last year? Should they stop having fire drills?


This is a fine example. School fires are much, much more common than school shootings. There were 5,500 school fires last year leading to 125 casualties (I couldn't find the breakdown between deaths and injuries). But, unlike school shootings tens of thousands of kids actually face school fires. And unlike these hijacking drills, fire drills actually have been shown to save lives.

Quote:
When I went to school we had duck and cover drills. No one thought these were a joke or unnecessary


That isn't true at all. There were many Americans who thought these duck and cover drills were an unnecessary joke (or worse yet cynical propaganda effort). And in hindsight they were an unnecessary joke.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 06:33 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There were many Americans who thought these duck and cover drills were an unnecessary joke...

They weren't in my class. We took those drills very seriously.

Quote:
According to the data, there have been a total of 137 fatal school shootings that killed 297 victims since 1980. Elementary schools saw the fewest shootings (17), while high schools saw the most (62). Each decade had more shooting deaths than the previous one.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2012/12/sandy_hook_a_chart_of_all_196_fatal_school_shootings_since_1980_map.html


And the last school fire (in a K-12th grade school) that had 10 or more deaths was in 1958.
http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-statistics/deadliest-and-large-loss-fires/school-fires-with-10-or-more-deaths

But we still have fire drills.

And because we still have shootings in schools, as recently as this week, we have to have drills, and a level of preparedness, to deal with such random and unpredictable crisis events in an organized manner.

The fact that a man with an AK-47 and 500 rounds of ammo got into an elementary school two days ago is likely to generate considerably more anxiety than the simulated drill you referred to in your opening post.

It's the real life events, that threaten the safety of schoolchildren, and school personnel, that generate anxiety and concern, not the drills or simulations.

It's just fortunate there wasn't another massacre at that Georgia elementary school this week, all the elements for that to happen were in place. It's not like these things aren't actually going on. The schools have to be prepared.

maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 06:49 pm
@firefly,
You are totally missing the point.

1) There are 5,500 fires a year in schools. This is statistically significant. There are 3 or 4 multiple shootings a year in schools. This is statistically insignificant.

2) It is certain that having an evacuation plan means that children will exit the building quicker meaning fewer deaths. There is no evidence to suggest that this type of swat drill saves any children, in fact these events generally end at the moment the police arrive or even before.

3) Fire drills have been proven to save lives. As you point out the number of deaths from fires has been going down as we have added prevention methods including fire drills. There is no such evidence that drills prevent school shootings.

4) There are sensible things that we could do to stop gun violence in general... such as enacting background checks for gun buyers. These useless drills may actually do harm by making us feel we are doing something even though the something doesn't even address the real problems behind school shootings.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 07:05 pm
@maxdancona,
Most school fires (over 40%) occur outside of the school--they are often trash fires, or fires in parking lots. The ones inside schools are often small kitchen fires. They are not fires that generally endanger children, or most of the people inside a school, and schools have sprinkler systems. That's why fatalities from school fires are now very rare. That's not true of deaths from school shootings--those aren't all that rare, and serious injuries and deaths of children, from gunshots in school, considerably exceed the number of children seriously injured and killed by fires inside of schools. But we still have fire drills.

One thing a swat drill does is to help prepare and familiarize everyone, including children, with what the police response is likely to be in such a situation. That may help to reduce fears of what the police are doing in a real life situation--the police response is to help get the situation under control, but it can be even more frightening if you don't understand or anticipate it.
Quote:
These useless drills may actually do harm by making us feel we are doing something even though the something doesn't even address the real problems behind school shootings.

The purpose of fire drills isn't to reduce the incidence of fires, or to address the cause of fires. It's to provide an organized response in case of a fire, so everyone understands what to do. The same is true of drills to deal with shooters, or any other crisis, in a school. I don't see these drills as useless.

We just don't agree on this one.

rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 07:10 pm
@maxdancona,
If Omsigdavid has his way all the kids on that bus would have been armed and they would have shot the hell out of the guy before they found out it was a drill Smile
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 08:25 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
One thing a swat drill does is to help prepare and familiarize everyone, including children, with what the police response is likely to be in such a situation.


Can you give me a single example of when the police has responded in this way to such situation in the past, let's say, 40 years?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 09:00 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Can you give me a single example of when the police has responded in this way to such situation in the past, let's say, 40 years?

With a SWAT team?

I think Tuesday, in Georgia, in response to that school shooter.

The possibility of a school bus being hijacked isn't that far-fetched.

I don't know why this drill/simulation has you so upset. This isn't something they are doing routinely. The police have to practice these things too. And you are completely overlooking the fact that the main point of the simulation was to help teach school bus drivers, school administrators, etc. how to react, and what to expect, should such a situation occur. The students knew they were in a simulation, and, not only were they not traumatized, one of them said it was good to know there were people available to help in a such a situation, should it happen.

We just disagree on this. I see nothing wrong in being prepared.

In the last couple of years, I've had two friends, in quite different geographic locations, participate in simulated terrorist attacks, to help train first responders and others how to deal with casualties, people's emotional reactions, etc. We don't have terrorist events very often, but things like what happened at the Boston Marathon do occur. There's nothing wrong in being prepared, or in getting people to think about how they might handle certain events.

Certainly, a school bus driver does need to know what to do, or what to expect, should an armed adult, or even an armed student, get on a school bus, or try to hijack the bus. That was a main reason for this training simulation. It was watched by a fairly large audience of school personnel, and it was intended as a teaching exercise.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 09:45 pm
@firefly,
On Tuesday, in Georgia, the school shooter surrendered. If there was a training exercise for taking away a compliant person who hadn't hurt anyone than that would have come in handy in that situation. Training for a hijacker on a bus was rather useless.

The probability of a school bus being hijacked is far-fetched. It is so far-fetched that it hasn't happened in 37 years. Something that happens once out of 37 years to one school bus (out of hundreds of thousands of school buses) is pretty far fetched.

The problem with these terrorist drills is that they don't actually help people get prepared. That's not the purpose. The purpose is to give people a warm fuzzy feeling that the officials are doing something. It is a cargo cult reaction to something that we can't really do very much about, but that isn't really a very big risk in our lives anyway.

I don't mind these drills when they are logical. Mass casualty drills targeted to training first responders is logical and they can include things like chemical spills and explosions as part of this.

But these training drills that cover extremely rare events and don't actually match reality aren't rational. They are more public relations fluff than actual "preparedness".




ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 09:52 pm
@trying2learn,
I've been guessing about the 1976 bus thing. I first thought, that was in Coalinga. But no, close, Chowchilla bus kidnapping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chowchilla,_California

This does not mean I am somehow for reenactments, even phony ones if Max's example turns out to be phony.


On another note, I was beyond shy in high school. I hated ever having to stand up and give a speech. Hated.
I was saved in the middle of mine by a fire drill.
Years later I was fine with public speaking. Maybe the fire drill was a help in that.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 10:09 pm
@maxdancona,
I posted a thing on the idea of the "warrior cop" not long ago. This is a typical example of what's involved.

http://able2know.org/topic/218612-1
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 10:23 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
On Tuesday, in Georgia, the school shooter surrendered. If there was a training exercise for taking away a compliant person who hadn't hurt anyone than that would have come in handy in that situation.

That shooter really wasn't compliant, he was a very real threat, and he was armed to the teeth. He had fired shots both inside and outside of the school, and he had hostages, and he had reloaded his weapons. At the very least, he was likely ready to shoot the police and probably get them to kill him as well. That school was surrounded by police.

What was so remarkable was that Antoinette Tuff, a bookkeeper in the school, managed to get that shooter to be compliant and to surrender by relating to him with compassion and empathy, extending hope to him, and by helping him to get out of the situation without getting killed and without hurting anyone. And she managed to do this with outward calm, despite the threat to her own life that he posed. She provided a training exercise that others could learn from. Her behavior was quite remarkable, and quite heroic. And she proved you don't always need a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun.
Quote:
The problem with these terrorist drills is that they don't actually help people get prepared. That's not the purpose.


I really do think the purpose of this training exercise was to help people get prepared.

We didn't expect someone to walk into that Sandy Hook school and slaughter 1st graders either.

The idea of someone taking over a school bus just isn't that far-fetched to me. It's better to have a plan before something happens. I doubt that this is the only school district that's considered, and talked about, or trained for, how to handle such an event.
Quote:
Police kill Miami school bus hijacker
November 2, 1995

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A man claiming to be armed with a bomb hijacked a school bus Thursday and led police on a low- speed chase to Miami Beach, where he was shot and killed.

The 11 fifth- and sixth-graders still on the bus escaped serious injury as did the woman driver, who was hailed as a hero by school officials.
Bus on highway
The bus rammed a police cruiser on an expressway in the early stages of the chase and later hit a marked Dade County school district car before the chase ended in gunfire.

There was no bomb, but police, aware of the hijacker's threat to blow up the bus, quickly dragged him away from the bus into a nearby alley.

Police said the hijacker had just quit his job at Joe's Stone Crab restaurant and was demanding a conference with the Internal Revenue Service in a dispute involving thousands of dollars in what the IRS was calling unpaid taxes.

Police identified the man as Catalino Nick Sang, 42, a native of the Dominican Republic who was of Chinese descent. His immigration records indicate he legally entered the United States on March 28, 1984, as a Chinese specialty cook.

He forced a woman and two children onto the bus at a bus stop just outside Miami city limits in South Dade County, police said, and commandeered the bus by threatening to blow it up.

An anonymous caller reported the hijacking to police and a low-speed chase involving Metro-Dade and Florida State Patrol cruisers followed.

The bus stopped three times during the chase, once so the driver could ask police to provide the hijacker with a cellular phone. A Florida State trooper threw a cell phone into the bus at an exit off the highway. A subsequent video recording showed the man talking on the phone.

At another stop, a woman and two children got off the bus and climbed into a nearby police car.

The final stop was outside the Miami Beach restaurant where the hijacker had worked. The man was shot to death there, apparently while trying to get off the bus.

A police source told CNN the man was shot in the doorway of the bus before it stopped in front of Joe's Stone Crab restaurant and then again after it stopped as he tried to get off.
Hijacker behind driver
Witnesses told reporters at the scene three shots were fired as the man was getting off the bus.

"When he came off the bus, words were pretty much exchanged, stuff like that ... and the (police), just right there, shot him. Boom," one witness said. "We didn't really see much of it, but (there was) commotion."

Detective Juan del Castillo said police ordered the man to get off the bus. "He didn't comply and that's when we shot him," del Castillo said.

After the shooting, the hijacker was dragged into a nearby alley. His body was later seen covered with a tarp.

Sgt. Ralph Fernandez said the man had threatened to blow up the bus. He said a device -- "some sort of canister" -- was found on the bus, but that it was not a bomb.

None of the children was seriously hurt, although at least three suffered minor injuries. Officials at Mount Sinai Hospital said one child, a 7-year-old autistic boy, was treated for lacerations of the face and right arm caused by flying glass.

Del Castillo said the man got on the bus at an intersection on Miami's south side at 8:26 a.m. He threatened the driver with a bag that contained the canister and ordered her to drive.

The bus could been seen moving slowly down a Miami expressway surrounded by police cruisers. The woman driver sat calmly at the steering wheel and the hijacker sat next to a child several seats behind her.

The bus drove through Miami Beach, stopping at Joe's Stone Crab Restaurant. One child was allowed to get off the bus. Then the bus began moving again.

The police Special Response Team could be seen moving in. Shots were fired and police dragged the suspect from the bus. The children were then taken out of the bus through the rear emergency exit.
Bus driver
The bus was carrying students to Blue Lakes Elementary School. "The bus driver frankly was a hero," said school superintendent Octavio Visiedo. "She never panicked. She did an excellent job." (112K AIFF sound or 112K WAV sound)

Joanne Sterns, the school principal, said five of the children were in the special education program. She said, "I understand that the bus had stopped at a railroad crossing when a gentlemen hopped on the bus. He had had trouble with the IRS and was trying to use the children to get what he wanted."

She said the parents of the students on the bus were at the school and were aware that the incident was over and that none of the students were injured.
Child on bus
After the incident was over, the children were taken into Joe's Stone Crab and given ice cream. School officials said some were quiet but all seemed all right.

A school bus later picked up the students and took them back to their elementary school

http://www.cnn.com/US/9511/hijacked_bus/pm/


This school bus hijacking occurred this year...

Quote:
April 30, 2013
Preparing for the threat of hijacking

Regardless of whether the driver obeys the commands or resists a hijacker, every single school bus driver must understand that their No. 1 priority is the protection of the children on board. Drivers must be prepared mentally for these situations and conduct drills to reinforce proper procedures.

By Bret E. Brooks


On Jan. 29, 2013, Charles Albert Poland Jr. became a true American hero. He gave his life so that young, innocent children might live.

The man who murdered Mr. Poland then abducted a 5-year-old boy and retreated to a bunker. After six agonizing days, Ethan was reunited with his family.

This tragedy in Midland City, Ala., is just the latest in a rash of violence targeted against schools and students. Whether it is an active murderer as at Sandy Hook Elementary in Connecticut on Dec. 14, 2012, or one of the hundreds of bomb threats that have been called in to schools since the start of this school year, we are seeing an increase in violence at what should be sacredly safe educational institutions.

There is one simple fact that everyone should understand: Every school in the U.S. — and school bus drivers — must be prepared for violence.

Bus hijacking history

Hijacking school buses is not a new concept. For decades, other countries have dealt with school bus hijackings and bombings. Many school buses in Israel have armed guards on board to deter terrorists.

Charles Poland was certainly not the first American school bus driver to be hijacked. One of the most notable school bus hijackings was the 1976 Chowchilla, Calif., incident in which bus driver Ed Ray, another true American hero, and 26 children were kidnapped and buried alive in a moving van. After 16 hours, Mr. Ray and some of the students were able to break through a covered opening in the ceiling and get everyone to safety.

Another notable school bus hijacking occurred in 1995 in Miami. Alicia Chapman’s bus was hijacked while full of children. She followed the hijacker’s instructions until police shot and killed the suspect.

A week before the recent hijacking in Alabama, on Jan. 23, a Kansas City, Mo., school bus driver refused to allow an unknown person on the bus and drove away. That suspect then began shooting at the bus. Luckily, no one was hurt, and a possible hijacking was prevented.

Anticipating threats

The prevention of hijackings is a cornerstone of Gray Ram Tactical LLC’s training class “School Bus Hijacking Awareness and Response.” Drivers are taught how they can prevent hijackings and what to do if they are hijacked. Drivers are also taught what they can do to assist law enforcement during the situation. This article is not intended to provide a full training course, but below is some pertinent information that drivers can utilize if they ever find themselves in a potential hijacking situation.

Potential hijackers are not always adults. School bus hijackings have been committed by students. The shooter in Kansas City was reportedly a student at a local school.

In May 2011, a North Carolina school bus driver, Evans Okoduwa, was able to disarm a seventh-grader by talking to the student.

When adults hijack school buses, there can be a variety of motives. The hijackers in 1976 wanted money, the hijacker in 1995 was angry at his previous employer, and we may never know the motive of the hijacker in Alabama. The adult could be a complete stranger or a parent of one of the students on board. Additionally, terrorism might be a motivator for hijackings.

In short, a potential hijacker could be anyone of any age, race, ethnicity, sex or background. This is why it is so important to follow policies of not allowing anyone on the bus unless they are authorized. This must include both adults and children.

Plan and practice

Every school bus driver should have an emergency plan of what to do if they are hijacked. These emergency plans must be practiced just like evacuation drills.

Understandable codes should be used by drivers to inform other drivers, dispatch or supervisors of situations. Instead of calling over the radio that they “have been hijacked” or that they “think a student has a gun,” drivers should use codes, like “Code Blue” or “Code Five.”

Additionally, drivers should have periodic check-ins with dispatch or a supervisor. If one of the check-ins is missed, that can alert others of a potential problem.

School districts should also work closely with law enforcement. Local police should have an understanding of bus routes and attempt to patrol those routes. This can deter hijackers, and it is effective at reducing stop-arm violations.

Creating and maintaining a “Bus Patrol” of students can also be effective for emergencies. In programs like these, older students are taught what to do in case of various circumstances. One possible situation might be that the Bus Patrol officer will call 911 if someone attempts to hijack the school bus.

In today’s world, most kids have cell phones. While the student is calling the police, the driver can focus on the hijacker, knowing that someone else is calling for help. Again, these scenarios should be practiced in drills.

Assess the situation

If a school bus is hijacked, the driver must make some very important decisions in a very short amount of time. There are two schools of thought: The first is for the driver to obey the hijacker’s commands and wait for assistance. The second is for the driver to resist. There are many factors that must go into the decision on which approach to take. It is the totality of the circumstances that should lead the driver to the correct decision.

Regardless of whether the driver obeys the commands or resists a hijacker, every single school bus driver must understand that their No. 1 priority is the protection of the children on board. Drivers must be prepared mentally for these situations and conduct drills to reinforce proper procedures.

I encourage every driver to seek out training and learn what they can do to protect themselves and the children on their bus. I also implore school districts to provide quality training to every member of their staff.


http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/Channel/School-Bus-Safety/Articles/2013/04/Preparing-for-the-threat-of-hijacking.aspx


0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 03:01 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
When I went to school we had duck and cover drills. No one thought these were a joke or unnecessary, even though we hadn't had a nuclear attack.


On reflection they were, duck and cover offered negligible protection against a nuclear strike.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 07:19 am
@izzythepush,
Many of us understood how ridiculous they were at the time.
xsevents007
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 07:43 am
@maxdancona,
It is totally uncool to shoot at childrens and those who do it shall be punished.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 07:44 am
@maxdancona,
We had a similar pamphlet, Protect and Survive, which all about living under the stairs for a couple of months.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 10:41 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Many of us understood how ridiculous they were at the time.

I don't know where you lived, or how old you were, when we were having these duck and cover drills in school, but no other students I can recall thought these drills were ridiculous. Talk about "scaring the crap out of a bunch of kids", we were given lectures on protecting our eyes to avoid blindness from looking at the blast, the need to shield ourselves from flying glass and objects, etc. and we were all smart enough to know that wouldn't help us much if an atomic or nuclear bomb was dropped anywhere near us--that's what made it scary.

And all of this was going on in the context of a high alert in the area at the time. Where I lived, they were not allowed to use sirens, on ambulances, or police cars, etc. and, if you were watching a movie on TV that had the sound of a siren, the sound was muted to cut off the siren. Sirens were reserved as air raid warnings.

I think how ridiculous you felt this was at the time may have been affected by how close you lived to an area that was considered a prime target for an attack. Where I lived, none of the kids found it ridiculous, it was just scary.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 11:14 am
@firefly,
I was in upstate New York in the 1970s. We were right near Plattsburgh Air Force base which was a key base in the SAC and considered one of the first sites to be targeted by the Soviets in a nuclear war.

We absolutely joked about duck and cover, primarily because we understood that if we were targeted, ducking and covering wasn't going to do much good. My parents were dismissive of the exercise.

Duck and cover was primarily a propaganda tool to keep the fear of the Soviets constantly in people's mind, and to make people feel warm and fuzzy about the officials who were "doing something" (regardless of the fact that what they were doing was pretty meaningless).


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 11:15 am
@maxdancona,
But I am talking about the 1950's--it was quite a different time. And I lived in an area much closer to NYC, which was definitely considered a prime target.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 11:18 am
@firefly,
The 1950's was the time of McCarthyism. Scaring the crap out of people was politically profitable.

That explains a lot.
 

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