I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

@Romeo Fabulini,

Among the rewards of Heaven there might be for the philosophers among us an enlightenment so grand that golf would be too pitiful for our attention. On the other hand an ordinary zen enlightenment would love to simply hit balls with sticks around for its own sake--no score kept.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Among the rewards of Heaven there might be for the philosophers among us an enlightenment so grand that golf would be too pitiful for our attention. On the other hand an ordinary zen enlightenment would love to simply hit balls with sticks around for its own sake--no score kept.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

O.K., if a blind person hits a goal'in-one only two things will matter, e.g., that his fellows all agreed that he did so--and that the of his game and culture assume that hitting a goal-in-one is a GOOD THING.

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@JLNobody,

addendum to the post above: that the RULES of his game and culture assume that...

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Being a "Monist" I am by implication a thorough-going relativist (or co-and inter-relationist?). As such , Frank, it feels right for me to sugguest that the "I" in "I exist" is more a function of language (the imperious subjective-object split) than an actual empirical pointer. I cannot give a definitive logical proof that I am not a solipistic reality, but in my heart I "know" (what you call a possible delusion) that "my" reality includes you and everything else.

MY GUESS is that you do not even KNOW that I actually exist.

Quote:

You also say that the question of the existence of the universe "is probably just a small part of the total equation." Perhaps so, but to me it is also an exclusively human phenomenon, a purely human query or concern.
Thanks to Fresco for the delicious link. Mathematical logic can be a source of both joy and pain.

Your human "chauvanism" is interesting to see and to consider, JL.

Expand your mind...and consider all the other possibilities.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Just to digress slightly and touch on our own personal perception of Truth and Reality:- Suppose we were blind golfers and we hit a hole in one, how could we be 100% sure we'd done it?

The important point is not that we KNOW it...or are 100% sure we'd done it...or that anyone else knows that we did it.

The important point is that what IS...IS. If we actually made a hole in one...none of that other stuff matters whatever...because we made the hole in one.

That has essentially been my point all along.

Our considerations...our knowledge...of what IS...MAY NOT impact on what IS.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

MY GUESS is that you do not even KNOW that I actually exist.

Great turnips Frank! I hope you do.
Who will buy me beer when I get back to Jersey?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
MY GUESS is that you do not even KNOW that I actually exist.
Great turnips Frank! I hope you do.
Who will buy me beer when I get back to Jersey?

"I" will...and with pleasure.

BUT...my guess is that you do not even KNOW that I actually exist...and will not even if I do buy you that drink.

I am reconsiled to the fact that even if I meet you and have a drink or two with you...I honestly cannot KNOW for a fact that "you" exist. All of this...the universe and all the people in it...may be an illusion.

If that is the case...the illusion will be real (which probably means that some form of "I" is real)...but the components are the illusion.

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@Frank Apisa,

I hope you do get back here...and I hope we do get to share a drink.

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@Frank Apisa,

After a few brewskis, I'd probably know whatever the heck you said I should know. Drunk

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@Frank Apisa,

The principle, Man is the mesasure of all things is not only a principle we should follow, it's one we often do follow without realizing it. By the way, my study of mysticism and anthropology are attempts to "expand my mind", as you put it. But they are also intensely and exclusively human efforts.

True, I do not know in some absolute way that you exist. But I do not need "absolute knowledge." Nevertheless, I know it well enough (i.e., to my satisfaction) that it's no problem for me.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

After a few brewskis, I'd probably know whatever the heck you said I should know.

I would guess you already do.

But after a few brewskis...you might be able to acknowledge it.

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

The principle, Man is the mesasure of all things is not only a principle we should follow, it's one we often do follow without realizing it.

Perhaps you are correct here...but it is extremely short-sighted. Homo Sapiens may look like Australopithicines to other species that may exist.

Quote:

By the way, my study of mysticism and anthropology are attempts to "expand my mind", as you put it. But they are also intensely and exclusively human efforts.

They are, indeed. And we, as humans, should do the best humans can do. But to suppose we are the end-all of living creatures...or that we can truly understand some of the stuff we suppose we do...is, as I said earlier, short-sighted.

Quote:

True, I do not know in some absolute way that you exist.

I cannot truly speak to that...but I KNOW that I do not KNOW that you exist. All of the universe including you...may be an illusion or delusion of mine. I do not know.

Quote:

But I do not need "absolute knowledge." Nevertheless, I know it well enough (i.e., to my satisfaction) that it's no problem for me.

Like you, I live my life in the here and now as it appears...and since I am having his discussion with you, obviously I am willing to suppose you do exist.

I have no problem with that. There are times, however, when mentioning what has been mentioned here has value...and I think this is one of those times.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I have no problem with that. There are times, however, when mentioning what has been mentioned here has value...and I think this is one of those times.

Naah. At 5 am US time you are obviously dreaming !

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
I have no problem with that. There are times, however, when mentioning what has been mentioned here has value...and I think this is one of those times.

Naah. At 5 am US time you are obviously dreaming !

Actually, I'm not.

I work at a golf course as a starter...and I've gotta be there very early...before sunrise.

It is going to be a banner day here in New Jersey today. Hope it is great wherever you are, Fresco...and wherever all the rest of you are.

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@Frank Apisa,

A whole day just to celebrate the Hulk's alter ego, have fun.

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JLNobody wrote:

Quote:

Among the rewards of Heaven there might be for the philosophers among us an enlightenment so grand that golf would be too pitiful for our attention........
All I know is that I am part of the Universe and I have first hand evidence that I exist but I am not intellectually sure of what I am (or what you are)

Golf fans might say golf is certainly not "too pitiful" for our attention in heaven, and they might even not want to go if there's no golf there.. Wink

As for you having "first hand evidence" that you exist, how can you be sure? We might simply be "dream creatures" of some sort, ensnared in Maya (illusion)-
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.'' - Albert Einstein
"Strawberry Fields, nothing is real" (The Beatles)
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep.." (The Tempest)
"You can be in my dream if I can be in your dream" (Bob Dylan)
"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream"- Edgar Allen Poe
"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" (Bible:James 4:14)

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Interesting post. All I can say is the "first hand evidence" of my existence is the experience of my existence. That is all that I feel sure of. Experience is reality. Without that I do not exist; you may feel real but I won't. Everything is subjective and that's an objective fact. Wink

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Interesting post. All I can say is the "first hand evidence" of my existence is the experience of my existence. That is all that I feel sure of. Experience is reality. Without that I do not exist; you may feel real but I won't. Everything is subjective and that's an objective fact.

I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

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