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I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

 
 
igm
 
  2  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 02:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Yeah..."a bit like Christianity then" pretty much describes it.


That's not a guess then Frank... you know because you are an expert... even though you've never quoted any of the 1000's of Buddhist philosophical texts or texts on logic. You state an apposing case without any supporting evidence... Christianity is based on faith... Buddhism on reasoning and logic.... and yes confidence to examine without dismissing immediately (as you do) that it must all be a guess.

Some expert you are Frank...

Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 02:55 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Yeah..."a bit like Christianity then" pretty much describes it.


That's not a guess then Frank... you know because you are an expert... even though you've never quoted any of the 1000's of Buddhist philosophical texts or texts on logic.


I HAVE NO PROBLEM AT ALL CALLING IT A GUESS!

I'll even tell you what I base my guess on: The fact that he is talking all this talk with no foundation...just like you are.

It is "belief" (guesses)...being spouted as some great philosophical teaching.


Quote:
You state an apposing case without any supporting evidence... Christianity is based on faith... Buddhism on reasoning and logic....


Yeah...and the check is in the mail.

Buddhism...especially the way you practice it...is pure faith. You have no real evidence that the Buddha ever knew anything about how to eliminate suffering...or that he knew how to teach others how to eliminate it.

You accept that on faith (make a guess and insist the guess is correct)...despite all your words that you are not.


Quote:

...and yes confidence to examine without dismissing immediately (as you do) that it must all be a guess.


Very interesting way to say..."and yes, also on faith."

Try not to be bothered by it, igm. Religious people ultimately have to depend on faith, because reason and logic simply does not cut the mustard with them.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 02:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Hey, igm...since I had so little problem calling my stuff a guess...

...how about you 'fess up also?

All this Buddhism stuff about the Buddha and his teachings...its all a guess...right?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Make that "do not" rather than "does not."
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  2  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
That's all hot air Frank... you don't know anything about Buddhist philosophy or logic but you 'know' it is all just a guess... you give no reasons.. no examples..

If as you say, 'reason and logic don't cut the mustard' for Buddhists then prove it... refute some Buddhist logic or Buddhist philosophical arguments.

There are 1000's to choose from and millions have been unable to do so... some of the greatest minds East and West (Stanford has whole collections in their philosophical department) have been impressed for 2500 yrs... but you Frank say without any arguments against it... that it is all faith based on a guess... you have one admirer and follower that I know of and that is Max... I don't know anyone as full of hot air as you Frank.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:13 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

That's all hot air Frank... you don't know anything about Buddhist philosophy or logic but you 'know' it is all just a guess... you give no reasons.. no examples..

If as you say, 'reason and logic don't cut the mustard' for Buddhists then prove it... refute some Buddhist logic or Buddhist philosophical arguments.


I don't have to. Instead I can ask you to use "logic and reason" to show that the Buddha was correct when he "taught" that there is no self.

Give it a try. At worse, it will provide a bit of humor to a thread that is taking itself way too seriously.



Quote:
There are 1000's to choose from and millions have been unable to do so... some of the greatest minds East and West (Stanford has whole collections in their philosophical department) have been impressed for 2500 yrs... but you Frank say without any arguments against it... that it is all faith based on a guess... you have one admirer and follower that I know of and that is Max... I don't know anyone as full of hot air as you Frank.


Give me the evidence you have that the Buddha was able to eliminate suffering...and was able to teach others how to eliminate suffering.
igm
 
  2  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
More hot air... I've already explained... and you say you 'know' I'm guessing in between hypocritically using ad hominem arguments directed at me or others who don't just roll over by you shortsighted 'guessing' argument and so you go on round and round your single statement with no evidence to back it up.

Hot air...
vikorr
 
  3  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Vikorr...

...give me your most glaring example of me being a hypocrite by demaning of others something that I do not demand of myself.

I want quotes...not these things you seem to make up.
Frank, every single time I've said you're being hypocritical, I have directly quoted what you've said. Go back and read them, because posting them again is pointless.

I also posted in a single post - a bulk lot of examples of you claiming you don't know the true nature of reality, criticising others for guessing, stating you don'g guess etc.

I've also explained how that quote breaks your own value (being the same value you demand of others)

Not once did you actually argue against the logic of my post, with any structured reply

Eg. 'this is not hypocritical' because my guesses about peoples feeling don't relate to reality, as feeling aren't a part of reality (that's the only thing I can't think you must be believing to not see your posts as hypocritical...it would be delusional, but I can't see how else you don't think you are being hypocritical)


As a summary, so far :

1. You've said that (when he disagrees with you) JL can agree with nonsense .........VS..... Hey JL, back me up...that's hypocritical, because in asking the question, you obviously believe that if he agrees with you, then it's not nonsense

2. You've demanded of others that they admit to their beliefs being just 'guesses'....vs........when someone questions things you obviously believe - you allow yourself because you make 'educated' guesses.

By the way, my previous comments on scientific theory was in relation to educated 'guesses' . My previous comments in relation to psychology vs mysticism was also in relation to educated guesses....I thought it might have softened your attitude, and you may then have asked - 'do you think your beliefs are educated guesses' (to which you may have got the answer 'yes') rather than 'admit it, it's just a guess'.

It took a long while to pull the 'educated guesses' out of you, and I dare say it took so long because you were aware of the can of worms it would open up in your position, when you look at your stance at the start of this thread on treating guesses as 'pure' guesses.

2A. You, who demanded people admit their beliefs are 'just guesses'/criticised them for not admitting it /presenting them as knowledge........vs..........you have often guessed at peoples state of being (a state of being is a reality, which you claim you do not know reality)....but presented them as statements (ie knowledge & believed)

Your statements re other peoples state of being (eg. you are raging) were often so inaccurate that it's hard to even call them educated guesses.

As this is going around in circles, I don't think there is any point to this conversation any more.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:34 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
except that Christians don't set themselves on fire or run through the streets in protest at the government..Smile


Be careful there.... have you ever heard of Christian groups like the KKK and the Tea Party?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:18 pm
IGM claimed- "Christianity is based on faith... Buddhism on reasoning and logic"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whoa, Christianity WORKS, just like it says on the box because it's an ennervating POWER thing like a cold fizzy drink on a hot day..Smile

"Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with POWER.."-1 Thess 1:5
"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of POWER"- 2 Tim 1:7
"I am full of POWER ,judgement and might by the spirit of the Lord"- Micah 3:8
"Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty POWER" (Ephesians 6:10)
"After Jesus spent the night in prayer,everybody tried to touch him because POWER was coming from him"- Luke 6:12-19
Jesus said - "Someone touched me, I know that POWER has gone out from me."- Luke 8:46


And we too can "touch" Jesus by logging onto him to get a 'feelgood power download', just mumbling a few words now and again will get you connected, even if it's just "Jesus remember me", whenever you're feeling tired, lonely, fed up. That's why Christians, generally speaking are kool calm and unflappable..Smile

As I said earlier i've got Christian leanings even though I don't go to church and haven't been baptised, but i like Jesus so in that sense I'm permanently logged onto him, check me out in this vid (under my wargaming name Poor Old Spike) and notice my awesomely confident swagger, arrogant body language and aura of unearthly power that surrounds me, play it fullscreen for maximum dramatic effect-
"..as a Christian, praise God that you bear that name" (1 Peter 4:16)...
"..that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (Col 4:12)


http://youtu.be/QaArap_NpnI

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:21 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

More hot air... I've already explained... and you say you 'know' I'm guessing in between hypocritically using ad hominem arguments directed at me or others who don't just roll over by you shortsighted 'guessing' argument and so you go on round and round your single statement with no evidence to back it up.

Hot air...


No hot air...and no ad hominems. I am just telling you that all I see are guesses...and you are not providing any evidence that what you are selling is anything but guessing.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:25 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Vikorr...

...give me your most glaring example of me being a hypocrite by demaning of others something that I do not demand of myself.

I want quotes...not these things you seem to make up.
Frank, every single time I've said you're being hypocritical, I have directly quoted what you've said. Go back and read them, because posting them again is pointless.

I also posted in a single post - a bulk lot of examples of you claiming you don't know the true nature of reality, criticising others for guessing, stating you don'g guess etc.

I've also explained how that quote breaks your own value (being the same value you demand of others)

Not once did you actually argue against the logic of my post, with any structured reply

Eg. 'this is not hypocritical' because my guesses about peoples feeling don't relate to reality, as feeling aren't a part of reality (that's the only thing I can't think you must be believing to not see your posts as hypocritical...it would be delusional, but I can't see how else you don't think you are being hypocritical)


As a summary, so far :

1. You've said that (when he disagrees with you) JL can agree with nonsense .........VS..... Hey JL, back me up...that's hypocritical, because in asking the question, you obviously believe that if he agrees with you, then it's not nonsense

2. You've demanded of others that they admit to their beliefs being just 'guesses'....vs........when someone questions things you obviously believe - you allow yourself because you make 'educated' guesses.

By the way, my previous comments on scientific theory was in relation to educated 'guesses' . My previous comments in relation to psychology vs mysticism was also in relation to educated guesses....I thought it might have softened your attitude, and you may then have asked - 'do you think your beliefs are educated guesses' (to which you may have got the answer 'yes') rather than 'admit it, it's just a guess'.

It took a long while to pull the 'educated guesses' out of you, and I dare say it took so long because you were aware of the can of worms it would open up in your position, when you look at your stance at the start of this thread on treating guesses as 'pure' guesses.

2A. You, who demanded people admit their beliefs are 'just guesses'/criticised them for not admitting it /presenting them as knowledge........vs..........you have often guessed at peoples state of being (a state of being is a reality, which you claim you do not know reality)....but presented them as statements (ie knowledge & believed)

Your statements re other peoples state of being (eg. you are raging) were often so inaccurate that it's hard to even call them educated guesses.

As this is going around in circles, I don't think there is any point to this conversation any more.


Vikorr...you are one of the most self-serving posters I've ever experienced.

You claim that I am being hypocritical...but you have not provided one shred of hypocrisy on my part to substantiate that accusation.

PICK A SINGLE QUOTE OF MINE...and tell me how you see it to be hypocritical.

Allow me to defend against that.

Or if you see your accusations as nonsense...and of no point...just give it up.

I AM NOT A HYPOCRITE...and I defy you to show an instance of me being hypocritical.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
ALTERNATIVE; Pick out a good movie you have seen lately...and we can discuss it.

But don't just call me a hypocrite...or having hypocritical tendencies...and not back it up.

ONE SPECIFIC INSTANCE...and let us discuss that one item. A quote.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  2  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am just telling you that all I see are guesses...and you are not providing any evidence that what you are selling is anything but guessing.


I have there are 1000's of texts read em... here's one:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-tibet/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dharmakiirti/

But I don't know how to break this to you Frank... you are (at the moment) unsuitable for those teachings... many people would be but you (at the moment) are like a cup turned upside down... nothing new and worthwhile can enter. But the good news is eventually you will be able to understand them... but it may be a very long while... I hope not.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:32 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

I have there are 1000's of texts read em... here's one:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-tibet/

But I don't know how to break this to you Frank... you are (at the moment) unsuitable for those teachings... many people would be but you (at the moment) are like a cup turned upside down... nothing new and worthwhile can enter. But the good news is eventually you will be able to understand them... but it may be a very long while... I hope not.


I am not interested in the teachings of the Buddha, igm. I could not care less about them. You are the one whose belief system tells you they are of value.

I am asking you for anything that is evidence that the Buddha actually knew how to end suffering...and knew how to teach others how to end suffering.

If you haven't noticed, igm, there is all sorts of suffering going on...including (perhaps especially) in the Buddhist world.

What are you raving about?

Give me the evidence you have that the Buddha knew how to end suffering.

Give me the evidence you have that the Buddha knew how to teach others to end suffering.

Give me the evidence that suffering has ended!!!!
igm
 
  2  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

What are you raving about?



Frank Apisa wrote:

No hot air...and no ad hominems.


Laughing

My OP:

igm wrote:

Anyone can question anything that the Buddha taught and if I am able to answer I will.


You then say this:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am not interested in the teachings of the Buddha, igm.


Why are you here... to harm not help.. I'd say... and waste everyone's time.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Give me the evidence you have that the Buddha knew how to end suffering.

Give me the evidence you have that the Buddha knew how to teach others to end suffering.

Give me the evidence that suffering has ended!!!!


http://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=teachings+of+the+buddha+on+suffering
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:47 pm
Romeo said- "Christians don't set themselves on fire or run through the streets in protest at the government"
------------------------------------
Max said- "Be careful there.... have you ever heard of Christian groups like the KKK and the Tea Party?"
-----------------------------------
If the KKK are true Christians I'm Nanny McPhee..Smile
As for the Tea Party, they don't do violence do they? I hear they simply protest at government incompetence and corruption, nothing wrong with that..Smile-
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Eph 6:12)

Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 05:21 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

What are you raving about?



Frank Apisa wrote:

No hot air...and no ad hominems.


Laughing

My OP:

igm wrote:

Anyone can question anything that the Buddha taught and if I am able to answer I will.


You then say this:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am not interested in the teachings of the Buddha, igm.


Why are you here... to harm not help.. I'd say... and waste everyone's time.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Give me the evidence you have that the Buddha knew how to end suffering.

Give me the evidence you have that the Buddha knew how to teach others to end suffering.

Give me the evidence that suffering has ended!!!!


http://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=teachings+of+the+buddha+on+suffering


If that is what you call an ad hominem...you are a waif. (Now that might be closer to ad hominem.)

YOU tell me the evidence YOU have for the assertion that the Buddha knew how to eliminate suffering...and for the assertion that the Buddha knew how to teach others how to eliminate suffering.

What you are doing is the same as this other guy...quoting from the Bible.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 05:23 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Interesting Romeo. You are playing the same game that Igm is.

If you get to decide what true Christianity is, and Igm gets to decide what true Buddhism is, then neither can be held accountable for the crazy things that some of the practitioners of either religion do.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Wed 11 Sep, 2013 05:28 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Interesting Romeo. You are playing the same game that Igm is.

If you get to decide what true Christianity is, and Igm gets to decide what true Buddhism is, then neither can be held accountable for the crazy things that some of the practitioners of either religion do.



Great comment.

I suspect these two are much, much closer in thinking than either of them feels comfortable in seeing or acknowledging.
0 Replies
 
 

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