Have you ever questioned other peoples beliefs?

@neologist,

Quote:

I can't judge who may or may not be guilty of such a sin other than Adam and Eve. They were perfect. They chose to sin.

Can you truly not see how absurd that notion is, Neo?

If they were perfect and chose to "sin"...then there is nothing wrong with "sin."

In any case, if by "sin" you mean "to do evil"...they cannot be judged to have done "evil", because the very notion of evil was withheld from them by the god.

So I ask again: Can you truly not see how absurd that ntion is?

1 Reply

@igm,

What are you trying to prove here?

During Hitler's Germany, many risked death for refusing to salute Hitler. Some were youths. During wartime and civil strife, many young people of differing religions put their lives on the line in order to aid their neighbors. So, the decision to give one's life for religious reasons is nothing new. Admittedly, to some it is tragic; to others, even non JWs, it is laudable.

The absence of a blood transfusion is only one of the possible proximate causes of death for the young ones featured in the article you cite. The precipitating disease or accident would have to take first.

This thread can never conclude because we operate from different axioms. JWs believe in a creator with an immutable purpose. This includes a firm belief in the resurrection.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I wrote:
I can't judge who may or may not be guilty of such a sin other than Adam and Eve. They were perfect. They chose to sin.
Can you truly not see how absurd that notion is, Neo?

If they were perfect and chose to "sin"...then there is nothing wrong with "sin." . . .

Sin is certainly a credible conclusion from a purely intellectual view. It boils down to a simple choice:
Namely, do we accept God's right to set standards?
Whether you believe it or not, Adam and Eve's perfection included a perfect conscience, a conscience they rejected in favor of the serpent's offering. Eating the fruit was their outward act of rejection.

Their rejection of God has had consequences.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I wrote:
I can't judge who may or may not be guilty of such a sin other than Adam and Eve. They were perfect. They chose to sin.
Can you truly not see how absurd that notion is, Neo?

If they were perfect and chose to "sin"...then there is nothing wrong with "sin." . . .
Sin is certainly a credible conclusion from a purely intellectual view. It boils down to a simple choice:
Namely, do we accept God's right to set standards?
Whether you believe it or not, Adam and Eve's perfection included a perfect conscience, a conscience they rejected in favor of the serpent's offering. Eating the fruit was their outward act of rejection.

Their rejection of God has had consequences.

THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD.

THAT INFORMATION WAS WITHHELD FROM THEM.

THAT IS THE POINT OF THE STORY!

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . .THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD.

YES THEY DID!

Frank Apisa wrote:

THAT INFORMATION WAS WITHHELD FROM THEM.

WHAT PART OF "YOU WILL DIE" DID THEY NOT UNDERSTAND?

Frank Apisa wrote:

THAT IS THE POINT OF THE STORY!

Your story, Frank. Not the Bible.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD.

THAT INFORMATION WAS WITHHELD FROM THEM.

THAT IS THE POINT OF THE STORY!

Are you saying that they were blind to what was right and wrong but as soon as they ate from the magical tree they became aware and their eyes where opened and they seen their nakedness and God seen it too?
I wonder why God never made clothes for them in the first place if he thought their nakedness was wrong. It was not wrong until they ate from the tree that gave them the knowledge of what is good and bad?

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . .THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD.
YES THEY DID!
Frank Apisa wrote:
THAT INFORMATION WAS WITHHELD FROM THEM.
WHAT PART OF "YOU WILL DIE" DID THEY NOT UNDERSTAND?
Frank Apisa wrote:
THAT IS THE POINT OF THE STORY!
Your story, Frank. Not the Bible.

No, Neo...that is what the Bible says. That is the story from the Bible. That is the whole point of the story.

You really are in a bad spot here, but if you religion tells you to lie if necessary to defend the Bible...please feel free to do so.

But do not mind if I get a kick out of seeing you do it.

0 Replies

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD.

THAT INFORMATION WAS WITHHELD FROM THEM.

THAT IS THE POINT OF THE STORY!

Are you saying that they were blind to what was right and wrong but as soon as they ate from the magical tree they became aware and their eyes where opened and they seen their nakedness and God seen it too?
I wonder why God never made clothes for them in the first place if he thought their nakedness was wrong. It was not wrong until they ate from the tree that gave them the knowledge of what is good and bad?

They did not know right from wrong...good from evil when they disobeyed. There was no way for them to know that disobeying was wrong.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

During Hitler's Germany, many risked death for refusing to salute Hitler. Some were youths. During wartime and civil strife, many young people of differing religions put their lives on the line in order to aid their neighbors. So, the decision to give one's life for religious reasons is nothing new. Admittedly, to some it is tragic; to others, even non JWs, it is laudable.

It is laudable to sometimes die standing up to obvious evil e.g. Hitler. It is not laudable to allow the possibility of mothers and children's deaths when there is no need because transfusions are not mentioned in the bible and the people who run the JW organization have imposed this on the 'flock'. To save life they could have said that transfusions were not mentioned in the bible and not tried to infer what isn't there.

Follow the words of a book but don't infer something that if wrong will cost lives and bring your religion into disrepute... is what you should tell those in charge of you... will you? No, I am certain that you will not which leaves you open to the charge of having been brainwashed by those untouchable men that run your organization.

2 Replies

@igm,

Amended my last post... slightly.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . . They did not know right from wrong...good from evil when they disobeyed. There was no way for them to know that disobeying was wrong.

Other than their conscience. I'm sorry you can't see that, Frank.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . . They did not know right from wrong...good from evil when they disobeyed. There was no way for them to know that disobeying was wrong.
Other than their conscience. I'm sorry you can't see that, Frank.

A "conscience" depends on knowing the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil.

That is obvious.

You are stuck defending something absurd...and you do not know how to get out rather than continue with absurd lines of defense.

I am sorry you cannot see that, Neo.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

They had absolutely no appreciation whatever for what seems right, wrong, good, evil.

They were denied that sense...BY THE GOD.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

.. . .A "conscience" depends on knowing the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil. . ..

More specifically, a conscience depends on understanding the difference between right and wrong without having to scrutinize every situation as to whether it is good or bad.

1 Reply

@igm,

I do not think you are as devoted to veracity as you would have us believe.
Speaking of religious hypocrisy , tell me how Buddhists were able to massacre their brothers in Cambodia.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
.. . .A "conscience" depends on knowing the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil. . ..
More specifically, a conscience depends on understanding the difference between right and wrong without having to scrutinize every situation as to whether it is good or bad.

BUT THEY DID NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG.

The Bible tells us that the god denied them that knowledge.

THAT IS THE POINT OF THE STORY.

They did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying the god...and the "serpent" told them they could eat the fruit. They had no way of knowing that one was moral or right or good…and the other was immoral or wrong or evil.

By now you have to realize that…but you are willing to lie to yourself and your god in order to keep defending the absurdity of the story.

If your religion brings you peace, Neo…fine. It is wonderful that it does. But to post in this forum and defend absurdities because of the religion…is itself an absurdity.

Be real.

The only reasonable guess is that the story did not come from a god...it came from a human who was trying to explain something beyond his ability....and he did a lousy job of explaining.

Just as you are doing a substandard job of defending his absurdity.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Continue grading your paper, Frank.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Continue grading your paper, Frank.

Oh...I was grading yours there, Neo.

Wanna keep going?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I smell food.
See ya later

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I smell food.
See ya later

I'm making an omelet for Nancy tonight, because I am going for a sausage and pepper sandwich with cheese (make like a Philly Cheese Steak).

Yummy!

And she is a picky eater and does not like sausage, peppers or cooked onions.

Or cheese.

1 Reply

Have you ever questioned other peoples beliefs?

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