4 year old exposed to firearm by grandfather

Forums: Guns, Parenting, Children, Divorce, Custody
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I am separated from my wife, but we are still mostly civil and much more cordial than you'd expect from future divorcees . We have two beautiful children of 2 and 4 years old. I picked up the kids from my (soon to be ex) wife's house and in front of both of us the 4 year old says:

"daddy I have something to tell you in private not in front of mommy" I put both kids into the car and the 4 year old says "grandpa (wife's father) showed me a gun and said that they're ok because you shoot them in the air and it can't hurt your brain because you have a skull".

Well I absolutely flipped out. I immediately began texting my ex wife and asking for answers. I didn't poke and prod my child with any questions. I used texting because I didn't want the kids to hear what I was saying.
My exwife responded with only mild concern but I spared nothing in demanding answers. She first claimed that she doesn't know what the child is talking about but soon changed that to give a vague explanation that at a family friend's house the adults were shooting a gun but (my ex) wasn't there for that part.
My response was: the next time a gun is around my children YOU BE THERE.

Still not getting the information I wanted I decided to send a mass message to some of her family members and in no uncertain terms demanded details.

At first no-one seemed to know anything so I pressed on. About this time the ex wife claimed that it was a BB gun.

Then the story changed to there being a "gun" now not specified as a BB gun, that they were shooting at a family friends house in a heavily wooded area.

They then tried to play the "well she must be making things up card" even though one family member confirmed almost all of my child's statement.

The family is "furious" with me for messaging them and assuming that they put my kids in harm's way. I'm not going to fancy them a response because they obviously just don't "get it".

This is what I would respond with if someone came to me saying that their child saw me with a gun: "I absolutely understand your duress in this situation and offer every apology I can on that front. Rest assured I would never put your children into harms way and know that in the future I will exercise the best of judgement should a similar situation ever arise again. I understand this is an emotional and sensitive issue for you and I will do whatever I can to rectify the situation"

But instead I'm getting very defensive, argumentative and accusatory answers which are basically:
A. Calling my child a liar (even after a member of their family verified much of the story)
B. saying I'm insane and overreacting
C. Saying that they are "furious with" me (as if to say I shouldn't be mad at them?)

I've always held them in good regards and they've always shown my kids the utmost love and appreciation but I feel that this was a terrible err in judgement and the fact that I'm still not getting definitive black-and-white answers only raises my suspicions further.

A 4 year old may make up stories of a fantasy nature in an unpressured casual setting, but they do not have the capacity to fabricate graphic, mechanical, details of actual events.

The grandfather in question has a history of severe prescription abuse, alcohol abuse, marijuana addiction (i won't get into the politics of marijuana but I do support decriminalization though he is ALWAYS high and smokes in the vicinity of my children which I've voiced opposition to in the past to no avail. I do not use any drugs) and also has an unidentified disease that has caused him marked cognitive degeneration to the point of no longer being able to work or perform several home tasks or "ADL".

If your 4 year old tells you something like this would you not go to the ends of the earth to get answers?

Did I overreact? Absolutely, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

I'm not going to pursue this with CPS but I definitely made my voice loud and clear. I'm shocked and disgusted that her family wouldn't approach this in a more forthright, definitive and resolute manner.

What would you do?

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@Father0694,

If I had a child and if a man whose mind had deteriorated
for the reasons that u have enumerated were acting irresponsibly
with (or without) a gun, I 'd keep my child away from there.

However, I 'd want my child to have safety training
in the competent handling of firearms, in a safe environment,
at as early an age as possible, within reason.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Thank you and yes I've touched on the topic of guns in the past and at this point I've taught them that if they ever see a gun do not touch it and get an adult. But this seems to have nullified that idea by having and adult using a gun in what I can only assume (based on the vague details I've been given) was a mostly safe-yet questionable manner. I'm not a "gun nut" but do own two firearms that my children have never seen. I'm now going to have to approach them with the "gun talk" in a new manner.

2 Replies

@Father0694,

It's actually more troubling to me that this was couched in terms of secrecy. Your child should not be put into a position of having to tell secrets, things that Mommy (or Daddy, for that matter) should not be told. This is an impressionable age and I have little doubt that a four year old child does not appreciate the differences between a regular gun and a BB gun, or between a loaded one and one that is not loaded. Seeing adults behaving in what sounds like a cavalier manner is also disturbing, as it could potentially undercut your future safety talk.

I guess your hand is somewhat forced, and you'll need to have the safety talk sooner rather than later, and it may be harder to get your points across. You will also have to figure out how to get it across that the grandparents made a mistake in judgment without turning them into cardboard bad guys.

This may turn into, ironically, a task that you and your ex would do together. Calmly and in no uncertain terms, you'll need to get across that guns, like cars, are not toys, and belong to adults for their usage, and not to children. I suggest involving your ex in order to give her some responsibility for teaching this lesson, and also to give her the opportunity to field any inquiries your child might have about the behavior of your former inlaws.

0 Replies

@Father0694,

First, disable the text feature of your phone. These are not conversations you have 160 characters at a time. You don't send texts and mass messages, you call and visit. Second, there have been four people in the US killed by terrorists attacks as of May (all in Boston). There have been eleven killed by toddlers who got a hold of a gun. You and your wife need to discuss this in detail and be completely on the same page. If you can't get on the same page, make it part of the divorce and custody arrangements.

0 Replies

@Father0694,

Father0694 wrote:

Thank you and yes I've touched on the topic of guns in the past
and at this point I've taught them that if they ever see a gun
do not touch it and get an adult.

That is exactly the doctrine enunciated by the National Rifle Association on that point,
but in my humble opinion: it is not realistic (depending on the nature of the individual child)
because guns have an enticing, seducing allure that might well prove to be irresistible.
If it were me, I 'd want my child to KNOW certain simple principles of firearms handling,
for the sake of safety. For instance: never point the front end of a gun at any person,
unless u need to defend yourself from that person.
Concerning automatics: even if the magazine is out,
there might well still be a cartridge left in the chamber.
(Even seasoned, well-experienced law enforcement officers too ofen screw up on that one.)
Assume that every gun is loaded, until by inspection, u actually see that it is not loaded.
Your children are so young, that I am not sure of how much
thay can understand concerning safety training;
depending on his mental acuity, possibly your older boy might be able to benefit from it.

It may be all well and good just to tell the kids what the NRA
said to tell them ("leave guns alone and tell an adult"), but
what are the chances of actual compliance?
When I was 4 years old, I had no access to guns,
but if I had found one, there is NO chance
that I 'd have kept my hands off of it,
no matter what anyone had said.
Perhaps your children are more co-operative.

Father0694 wrote:

But this seems to have nullified that idea by having and adult using a gun in what I can only assume
(based on the vague details I've been given) was a mostly safe-yet questionable manner.

I suggest that u consider explaining to your child that people of ALL ages
have made errors of judgment in using all kinds of dangerous equipment
without proper caution (e.g., guns, or electric saws, or cars).
The mistakes of those adults have sometimes resulted
in severe personal injuries, including death; tell him its better to be careful.

Father0694 wrote:

I'm not a "gun nut" but do own two firearms that my children have never seen.
I'm now going to have to approach them with the "gun talk" in a new manner.

I am confident that u will be up to the task !
Will u let us know how well it turns out ?

I wish u the best.

David

0 Replies

@Father0694,

Thank you everyone and you've made many valid points.

Someone mentioned that the texting was inappropriate which to an extent I agree but I had no other means of addressing this without the children hearing. Ironically it turns out that with the families uncooperativeness and secrecy about the events, having this documented is in my (or the child's for that matter) best interest.

Someone else mentioned that guns have an alluring quality to the curious hands of a toddler which I do agree with. This is why my children have never even seen my guns in person but have seen pictures of them in books. I wanted to wait until both of them were older and certain that they could grasp the idea.

The 4 year old certainly grasps the idea that guns are "bad" and only for adults which is, I believe she felt the need to tell me this in secrecy.

It disgusts me that the only one giving me details of what happened is my 4 year old. Even if I'm an irate parent and going totally and unrealistically ballistic it does not allow them to play some kind of childish blame-game. Whether it be a text message, a mass email, a phone call, or a freakin smoke signal asking for clear details I expect those details in return regardless of how tactless and bullish I may seem in my approach. My demeanor can be addressed after the facts are laid out and not to be used against me to cloud the situation.

I'm still digesting much of what my child is saying and I think I'm going to speak to a counsellor.

I obviously need to patch things up with my ex's family but that can be done in due time. More importantly I need to make sure that this is not a vehicle for them to threaten my child with backlash. Even the slightest hint that they try to tell my child it has done something wrong will be answered by a third party.

Thank you all for your input. It's very much appreciated.

0 Replies

@Father0694,

**update**

It turns out that people were drinking and smoking weed and it's unclear whether or not the gun came out before or after those things. They were also using the gun as a sort of prop and posed for a bunch of "silly" pictures which my kids witnessed.

The family still just wants to concentrate on attacking me for how ballistic I've gone over the matter. My ex and I are going to a mandatory pre-finalizing-divorce parenting counseling class next week so I hope to address this further there.

Just sickening.

1 Reply

@Father0694,

Describe the gun ?
Was it a shoulder mounted weapon or a handgun?
A revolver or an automatic ?

Was it loaded ?
Was it aimed at anyone ?

Even without any guns, it is questionable
that your children are well off near that much drinking and drug use.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Only details i know for sure:

Shotgun

They were shooting cans and trees.

Yes loaded- they verified it was being fired.

I have photos from a social media site placing my children and the gun together on the property.

The family has since alienated me and is trying everything to make me look like the bad guy.

4 Replies

@Father0694,

And I have initiated contact with a local non-profit that specializes in these matters.

If anyone can direct me to other U.S. sources for help I'd be most thankful.

0 Replies

@Father0694,

Father0694 wrote:

Only details i know for sure:

Shotgun

They were shooting cans and trees.

Yes loaded- they verified it was being fired.

I have photos from a social media site placing my children and the gun together on the property.

The family has since alienated me and is trying everything to make me look like the bad guy.

IF I may offer some possible
strategic advice:
if its not too late, maybe it 'd serve your interests
to make friends with them, in hope of influencing them.

If people get mad at someone,
then those people might be less willing to be affected
by his advice, requests or suggestions; (just some food for thought).

David

0 Replies

@Father0694,

Ai yi yi.

I'm just really sorry this crap has happened, because the people most affected by your former inlaws' stupidity are your children.

0 Replies

@Father0694,

If I may offer a suggestion,
I recommend that your child shud not
discharge a shotgun, because many shotguns
have SIGNIFICANT recoil (Isaac Newton 's 3rd Law of Motion).
It might hurt his shoulder.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

If I may offer a suggestion,
I recommend that your child shud not
discharge a shotgun, because many shotguns
have SIGNIFICANT recoil (Isaac Newton 's 3rd Law of Motion).
It might hurt his shoulder.

David

A 4 year old might hurt his shoulder? WTF David. Sometimes you are so stupid with your comments I wonder where you are coming from. A 4year old wouldn't have the strength or the length in arms to even control a shotgun let alone put it against their shoulder and reach the trigger.
Average length of stock to trigger on shotgun 14-15"
The approximate length of arm with fingers stretched out on a 4 year that is 37" high would be about 13-14".

Fair warning on any advice David gives here. He thinks 8 year olds should be given guns and allowed to carry them in public whenever they want.

1 Reply

@parados,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

If I may offer a suggestion,
I recommend that your child shud not
discharge a shotgun, because many shotguns
have SIGNIFICANT recoil (Isaac Newton 's 3rd Law of Motion).
It might hurt his shoulder.

David

parados wrote:

A 4 year old might hurt his shoulder? WTF David.
Sometimes you are so stupid with your comments I wonder where you are coming from.

I am remaining here.
Thanks for your interest in my intellect,
however off-topic I.Q. might be.

parados wrote:

A 4year old wouldn't have the strength or the length in arms to even control a shotgun
let alone put it against their shoulder and reach the trigger.
Average length of stock to trigger on shotgun 14-15"
The approximate length of arm with fingers stretched out on a 4 year that is 37" high would be about 13-14".

I will not dispute your numbers.
I have not tested them.
The fact remains that he might hurt his shoulder,
if he uses a shotgun. I don't recommend it.

parados wrote:

Fair warning on any advice David gives here.
He thinks 8 year olds should be given guns and allowed
to carry them in public whenever they want.

When I was 8,
I was glad to have life-saving emergency equipment,
in case I needed it, like my nabors had.
The owner ought to be trained to use it safely,
in the public schools. Thanks for the warning.

David

0 Replies

4 year old exposed to firearm by grandfather

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