Reality - thing or phenomenon?

@fresco,

YOU have to rise up from the empty words level where you usually well, to the level where you can account for reality, including the reality of babies, their fingers, and the dangers out there that threaten their fingers, doors, electricity sockets and hammers included. When a baby, unattended, sticks his finger in a door that slams, he is hurt for real, whether he can verbalize it or not. Therefore language has nothing to do with being hurt by hammers, or doors.

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@Frank Apisa,

That is true.
It is sometimes my experience that my suggestions are deflected (not rejected, because rejection requires consideration) based on other suggestions that are understood to be of such high relevance that there cannot be alternatives. I understand JL's reference to fundamentalism earlier.

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@Olivier5,

You see nothing paradoxical in the assumption that consciousness evolves from something that has no kind of consciousness?
Or that life evolves from something that has no life?

The general assumption is that the objective is more fundamental than consciousness. What if that is backwards? To us, at least, and as far as we can tell for anything capable of perceiving reality, consciousness is more fundamental than objects.
Objects are only available for our consideration through awareness.

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@Olivier5,

I'm enjoying the way you're presenting reality in a way that are fundamental in what is real. Your death is real even if you yourself don't perceive it.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
There is a difference between trying to describe REALITY...and REALITY.

That sounds sensible.
But is there a difference between perceiving reality ...and reality?

I HAVE NO IDEA...AND I HAVE SAID THAT MANY, MANY TIMES.

I HAVE NO IDEA.

My problem is with the people who are absolutely certain there can be no difference.

I want them to explain how they know that.

The question is amusing...I am sure both perception and input to perceptual processes are a part of reality, its not like we have to choose, the problem rather is to know in what measure our perceptual inferences refer to something and not to question if they refer to the real as they themselves are real perceptions...

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@Cyracuz,

Quote:

You see nothing paradoxical in the assumption that consciousness evolves from something that has no kind of consciousness?
Or that life evolves from something that has no life?

It's hard to imagine how it could happen, but I don't see a logical contradiction. It's not logically impossible. One could imagine that matter has some inherent capacity to organization. Or one could hypothesize a god doing the organizing.

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@Olivier5,

Its irrellevant to the problem of identity...eventually as you regress back you are left with a non observed observer...a fact per se, an object.

...the problem is animism being primordial and not that animation exists...its like saying time is fundamental instead of just saying there is a phenomena of time pass in reality...they are two different things.

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@Olivier5,

I am not saying it is logically impossible. I am simply saying that there might be more options that the two you suggest.
Those options will seem ridiculous to anyone who won't suspend the premise of objectivity even temporarily.

We have no problem visualizing a rock floating in interstellar space, alone and unconnected to any planet. Most would perhaps agree that such a rock exists.

But if we propose that thoughts can also exist unconnected to any mind, far fewer people are willing to entertain the notion for very long. It's the materialistic bias.

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@Cyracuz,

Code:

But if we propose that thoughts can also exist unconnected to any mind, far fewer people are willing to entertain the notion for very long. It's the materialistic bias.

Information can exist without brains, but thoughts cannot. Unless you can prove they can?

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@Olivier5,

I can't prove it.
But what is the difference between thoughts and information?

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@Cyracuz,

Information continues to exist even though thoughts may not. The biology must be alive to comprehend information. Information doesn't disappear when the biology dies; it's still there. We humans have a dichotomy about what we observe as objective and subjective. We are limited by our biology of what we can "see, observe and perceive," and thus our reality.

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@Cyracuz,

Information is just a form taken by matter. E.g. crystals have a specific shape, depending on the mineral. Likewise, any atom is a form, i.e. it includes information.

It can be conceptualized as neg-entropy, the opposite of entropy.

Compared to minerals, living matter is evidently pushing this information business at a whole new level.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Information continues to exist even though thoughts may not. The biology must be alive to comprehend information. Information doesn't disappear when the biology dies; it's still there. We humans have a dichotomy about what we observe as objective and subjective. We are limited by our biology of what we can "see, observe and perceive," and thus our reality.

NOBODY'S REALITY IS LIMITED BY THEIR INABILITY TO SEE, OBSERVE, AND PERCEIVE. The only thing limited by that...is their ability to see, observe, and perceive.

REALITY may exist outside those things.

But getting you to see that seem hopeless.

I just enjoy trying.

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@Olivier5,

I would have thought that it was pretty obvious that a language using carer empathizes with a baby's cries and calls it "hurt" or "pain"(or "dirty diaper" or "hunger" or "thirst" ). Such empathy is the basis of human parenting ! It supports the essential social element in usage of the word "reality".

I don't believe you cannot understand the point that a "baby's world" is different to an adult's. You now seem to be playing a silly postures game in the face of a well documented constructivist thesis which is based on available experimental evidence. I've given you the best references I know on current developments. I find them preferable to uninformed Geschwätz.

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@fresco,

....the ability to taking care of the baby n answer his anxiety depends on those function need be done being actual...the problem is not the language game that categorises the function having to perfectly portray what you must do...

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@fresco,

Quote:

I would have thought that it was pretty obvious that a language using carer empathizes with a baby's cries and calls it "hurt" or "pain"

So you would think that, absent such "language using empathizer", you can smash babies' hands with sledgehammers without doing anything wrong... Babies don't really suffer since they haven't learned to use language yet.

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@Olivier5,

Bye bye !
Play nice.

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@Olivier5,

To me it would make more sense to say that matter is just a form taken by information when it's perceived under certain conditions.
If we are speaking about atoms, they apparently consist of even smaller components that have no physical 'place'.

In this day and age, the proposition that matter is a projection of information to our senses, and that without this projection, there might not be 'solidity' or 'reality', isn't all that outrageous once we get over our sense of ownership of our awareness.

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Information is quantized...which amounts to say objective, with measure, defined, substantial even if not material...like math is for instance, or like geometry.
What is subjective is the relation between the interpreter working upon information n building up from how it is informed n how it perceives the informing process from his own built in limitations...Now none of it diminishes the objectivity of the overall relational set of information, rather its objectivity, is the JUSTIFIER on how subjective perception with insufficient or incomplete data relations can occur....error in judgement itself requires objective mechanic on incomplete information processes so error can occur.

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Reality - thing or phenomenon?

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