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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

 
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 02:57 pm
@revelette,
Another interesting thing in the jury instructions: their definition of reasonable doubt.

In its jury instructions, the court wrote:
A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand if, after carefully considering, comparing and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt and you must find George Zimmerman not guilty because the doubt is reasonable.

I think this is a silly standard because it opens the gates to truthiness. How convicted you feel of something is a notoriously unreliable guide to its actual truth. But, it is the standard, the jury has to follow it, and I have probably taken too hard a line on the presumption of innocence.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:01 pm
@parados,
So we are still working on the theory that it is ok to just start beating the crap out of someone for following you and asking a question?
Thomas
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:03 pm
@parados,
Parados wrote:
Zimmerman put Martin in that position by following him, first in his car then getting out and chasing after him on foot. We know Martin saw Zimmerman in his car. We also know Zimmerman was running when following Martin. That isn't the same thing as simply asking him a question.

Well argued. You're right. If Martin had survived and Zimmerman had charged him with, I guess, battery, Martin would have claimed self-defense and prevailed.

parados wrote:
Martin should be given the same benefit of doubt you want Zimmerman to have, don't you think?

Absolutely, I would think so. But as Drew Dad pointed out, Florida law apparently does not think so. It demands a higher standard of evidence from defendants who used non-deadly force than from those who use deadly force. It's an insane double standard to have in ones laws, but insanity does seem to be the legal standard in Florida.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:08 pm
@parados,
No, under certain conditions its both moral AND legal.
IMHO, this isn't one of those cases, however.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Considering Martin ended up dead...don't you think it would have been reasonable.

Not from getting asked what he was doing there. But from getting followed by a neighborhood-watch guy who didn't identify himself before asking --- Parados is right, that's another story, even though Martin, too, was consumed with racial spite against George "creepy-ass cracker" Martin.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Martin already tried this, and he got himself killed. If you want to see more Martin's dead in the streets, then I guess this would be a good idea. Attack white people for no reason. Besides Zimmerman isn't white, his hispanic.
parados
 
  0  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:10 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

So we are still working on the theory that it is ok to just start beating the crap out of someone for following you and asking a question?

You are still saying Zimmerman had a couple of cuts which is evidence of his getting the crap beat out him? I recall having the crap beat out of me by 3 people when I was in high school. I looked a hell of a lot worse than Zimmerman for a couple of weeks after that but I certainly didn't fear for my life.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:11 pm
@parados,
Are you saying that every killing, no matter what the reason or the justification, is murder?
parados
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:15 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

Besides Zimmerman isn't white, his hispanic.


Why do you even trot out that **** Baldimo?
Quote:
This means that more than 90% of all Hispanic or Latino Americans are counted as "white" in some statistics of the US government.[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans


No.. it isn't a tree, it's Pine. Stop calling it a tree you %&$* moron.
parados
 
  1  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:18 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Are you saying that every killing, no matter what the reason or the justification, is murder?

I never said that. Do you feel "the prosecution's case" is "every killing"? I hardly think he has argued that at all.

0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  3  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:26 pm
@parados,
You only classify him as white so you can rage about the death of a black kid. Zimmerman doesn't consider himself white and looking at Zimmerman he doesn't look white.

If I were calling the police on Zimmerman I would describe him as hispanic and not white. Besides this BS court case, have you ever heard the news use the term White Hispanic when describing someone? No you haven't. White is used for Zimmerman because it helps enhance the rage people feel about this case. If both people had been black or hispanic or white we wouldn't have heard a word about this.

When was the last time you heard of outrage about a white person being attacked by black people? You don't because that isn't news. I could provide you with a few news stories about black people attacking white people out of rage due to the Zimmerman/Martin case. How many of those have you heard about?
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:32 pm
@Baldimo,
How are you able to determine anyone's race/culture? You have a special skill at it?

His name is Zimmerman.
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:33 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
There are several things about Zimmerman's story that are odd.

Yes. So?

After 60 witnesses (or so), after two weeks of direct and cross examinations, the answer to your all your question is still: "the jury doesn't know". And if the jury doesn't know, Zimmerman walks.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I have lived in lots of different places and had friends of all different colors and backgrounds. I am in an interracial marriage with a half black/half white woman. She looks hispanic and doesn't look black at all.

If you want to base it on the name only then Barack Hussian Obama really sounds African doesn't it.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:46 pm
@Baldimo,
Yawn!

I guess you don't have a valid argument. You just want to insist he's not white because it fits your narrative. Simple fact is Zimmerman is white. I wouldn't describe him as "hispanic" if I saw him on the street. He's pretty nondescript. He could be of Mediterranean descent for all you can tell by looking at him.

But then I suppose you think this guy is Hispanic and not white
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRY8i_Gvh9CIWJ-Lu8rXiTMd365D-WqzvHgDse79dEHhXh3vajY
Baldimo
 
  1  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:51 pm
@parados,
Nope. Spent enough time in the middle east that I can tell the difference between groups of people. Besides the guy listed in your pic is Persian.

Whats next, you going to call me a racist?

JTT
 
  1  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 03:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
"We sit in this in between place in the United States. In the U.S., when we think about race, it's usually black and white. ... Latinos complicate that dichotomy," said Cynthia Duarte, associate director of research for the Institute of Latino Studies at Notre Dame.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/trayvon-martin-case-georg_n_1387711.html
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 04:05 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:

If I were calling the police on Zimmerman I would describe him as hispanic and not white

Hispanic refers to ethnicity not to race. Hispanics can be of every race.

Quote:
Hispanic people can be black, white, Asian or mixed. Some 18 million Latinos checked the "some other race" category on their 2010 Census forms – which admonished in bold letters that Hispanic is not a race. So many Hispanics identified themselves as white, the overall number of white people in the United States increased.

"We sit in this in between place in the United States. In the U.S., when we think about race, it's usually black and white. ... Latinos complicate that dichotomy," said Cynthia Duarte, associate director of research for the Institute of Latino Studies at Notre Dame.

On voter registration forms, George Zimmerman identified himself as Hispanic, as did his mother. His father, Robert, listed himself as white on voter registration forms. Zimmerman's mother, Gladys, is originally from Peru.

Ethnicities in Peru run the gamut. Descendants of the original people or Amerindians of Peru, those who were under rule of the Inca empire, are the largest ethnic group, followed by those who are a mix of Spanish and Amerindian ancestry, also known as mestizos. Whites are about 15 percent of the population, followed by blacks, Asians and other groups. Class distinctions based on race and language persist in Peru, with whites at the top of the societal hierarchy and indigenous people often at the bottom, a vestige of Spanish colonialism.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/trayvon-martin-case-georg_n_1387711.html


Personally, I've never thought about either George Zimmerman's race or his ethnicity, because I don't think such things are relevant to his guilt.

But I do believe Zimmerman profiled Martin, and I do believe Martin's race was a factor in that. So Martin's race is relevant where Zimmerman's is not. It was Zimmerman's profiling of Martin, which then motivated all of his actions regarding Martin, that led to this tragedy.

Martin was an innocent kid, walking home from the store in the dark and the rain, while talking on his cell phone to a friend. Everything else about him, and his "suspicious behavior" existed only in Zimmerman's mind.

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 04:08 pm
@parados,
Without having already heard that he's Hispanic, I would venture to say that most people wouldn't know he's Hispanic. To claim they know everybody's background race and/or culture (even by their name) is a big lie of humongous measure.

Can't be done. Some people's background includes 4-5-6 cultures/races in their blood.

0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  4  
Fri 12 Jul, 2013 04:29 pm
Funny the first to bring up race was the defense, it a pretty slick way of saying why it was reasonable for Zimmerman to racial profile Trayvon Martin.

Quote:
Zimmerman was a caring man who had seen his neighbors victimized by a rash of burglaries, O'Mara said, many of them by young black men. It was not illegal for Zimmerman to follow Martin, he said, but prudent. He said Zimmerman voluntarily submitted to law enforcement interrogations without a lawyer after the shooting.


source

(obviously not a trayvon martin favorable tilted article.)

Two young black males were recently in involved in burglaries so of course any other young black male in the neighborhood is up to the same thing, it is only prudent to follow him and make sure the up to no good punk don't get away.
 

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