The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

@hawkeye10,

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neighborhood watch groups have rarely been particularly structured, or well trained, they were just citizens banding together to try to protect themselves over and above what the police can do. I find it very said the liability issues post travon martin make doing neighborhood watch a pretty stupid idea, the risks of doing it and getting sued out weight the damage that thugs are likely to do to our neighborhood. smart communities now dont hold meetings, and do even less training and have even less contact with the police than they used to as they try to prevent getting sued. again we see america going backwards, and liberals and our broken legal system have a lot to do with this particular instance of degeneration.

I don't think there's a word of truth in that entire statement.

There is no risk of liability, or of getting sued, if the rules of the Neighborhood Watch are followed--which is merely to observe, and call the police. Period.

And that's what Zimmerman didn't do...he decided to stalk his "suspect" and he did so while armed--both of which were in disregard of the rules. That's why his gated community paid out $1 million+ to Trayvon Martin's parents, and why they may yet bring a civil wrongful death suit against Zimmerman personally.

Neighborhood Watch volunteers don't need all sorts of "training" just to be observant, and call police if necessary. They have no duties beyond that. They are not security guards. They simply add more eyes, to observe, to help cut down on the crime rate, by notifying the police if something seems amiss. It's something that every other resident in the community can do, and should be doing.

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again we see america going backwards, and liberals and our broken legal system have a lot to do with this particular instance of degeneration.

What on earth do liberals have to do with this??? How is "our broken legal system" involved??? How is this even involved with the legal system??? Zimmerman disregarded the rules of his Neighborhood Watch, and in doing so, his actions led to the death of someone in that community--he exposed that community to liability for the death of a guest in that community. If he had followed the rules, there would have been no liability to the community.

If Zimmerman's job had been to shovel snow from the sidewalk in that community, and he failed to do that, and someone slipped and broke a leg, he would have exposed the community to liability for damages, in just the same way. And it would be because he hadn't followed the rules of what his job required.

This has next to nothing to do with the legal system--it's why homeowners, and gated communities, carry insurance. And civil suits are an important option of redress if damages are sustained as a result of negligence, or recklessness, or careless action by another.

If this is an example of the crapola thinking you'd spout in a thread about an allegedly "malfunctioning" legal system, don't bother starting the thread. You don't know what you're talking about, and your thinking couldn't be more muddled and garbled.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

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If a black man was prowling around my neighbourhood after dark, I hope somebody like Zimmy would be tailing him..

If anyone of any color was prowling around in the rain I would hope someone was keeping an eye on him while I am in my nice dry home and on the computer.

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@firefly,

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Zimmerman disregarded the rules of his Neighborhood Watch, and in doing so, his actions led to the death of someone in that community--he exposed that community to liability for the death of a guest in that community

the basis for the settlement I think is that the homeowners association knew that he always carried a gun, and did not do anything about it. I am not pleased with them at all, zimmerman had that right, there was no negligence on their part, so they should have not pretended that there was by settling.

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@hawkeye10,

"Not doing anything about it" makes them somewhat responsible for the outcome of Martin's death. They had a responsibility to ensure the safety of the people living in that neighborhood.

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@hawkeye10,

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the basis for the settlement I think is that the homeowners association knew that he always carried a gun, and did not do anything about it. I am not pleased with them at all, zimmerman had that right, there was no negligence on their part, so they should have not pretended that there was by settling.

It was a wrongful death suit, Hawkeye. Based on the Martin's contention that Zimmerman caused the wrongful death of their son. As the head of the Neighborhood Watch for that community, Zimmerman made the homeowners association culpable in the death, whether or not they knew he carried a gun.

Zimmerman wrongly profiled the Martin's son, who was a guest in the community, and not an intruder or trespasser, nor was he engaged in doing anything criminal, or anything criminally suspicious. He was only walking around on his way back from the store. He was wrongfully followed because Zimmerman regarded him as a criminal "suspect", which led to the confrontation that ended his life. In addition, Zimmerman should not have been armed when on Neighborhood Watch.

The wrongful death action is really directed at Zimmerman, but Zimmerman, as the Neighborhood Watch captain for the community, made the homeowners association culpable regarding his actions in causing the death.

The homeowners association did not admit any liability, or negligence, and the terms of the settlement are confidential. They settled because they risked a bigger payout if they went to a civil trial.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-04-05/news/os-trayvon-martin-settlement-20130405_1_trayvon-martin-benjamin-crump-george-zimmerman

The Martins may well lodge another wrongful death suit against Zimmerman personally. They just went after the homeowners association first. And I really think it will focus on why he profiled, and followed, Martin in the first place and not on who attacked who or the issue of self defense. Because Martin was black, and burglaries had been committed by blacks there, is not sufficient to explain why Zimmerman felt he had to follow him, stalk him in the dark, after he had notified the police, particularly since that was in disregard of Neighborhood Watch rules. Don't forget, the police concluded this was an avoidable death, had Zimmerman not followed Martin. That alone gives the Martins the basis for a wrongful death claim against Zimmerman.

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@firefly,

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The wrongful death action is really directed at Zimmerman, but Zimmerman, as the Neighborhood Watch captain for the community, made the homeowners association culpable regarding his actions in causing the death

a lawyer disagrees with both of us

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"It is quite unusual to have a resident listed as a security contact," says Allen Warren, an attorney with Chadwick, Washington, Moriarty, Elmore & Bunn in Fairfax, Va. "It's more common to rely on local law enforcement for security. HOAs should never give the impression they are providing security for residents."

Warren says it is best if a neighborhood watch or crime watch program is coordinated with the local police department and is not a designated HOA committee.

"When a community wants to set up a volunteer crime watch system, I encourage it, but I highly recommend that they have a community liaison officer from the local police or sheriff's office come in to train the volunteers," says Ellen Hirsch de Haan, a partner and attorney with Becker & Poliakoff in Clearwater, Fla., and past president of the Community Associations Institute. "The crime watch group must have written instructions, the first of which should be to call 911 and to not intervene in any situation."

Hirsch de Haan says that written guidelines must be distributed to all volunteers and to the community at large. The rules should prohibit carrying a weapon while on neighborhood watch duty.

"If the volunteer overstepped the guidelines, the HOA is in much better shape legally if the guidelines are in written form," Hirsch de Haan says.

Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/real-estate/lawsuit-against-hoa.aspx#ixzz2mIXPhXZG
Follow us: @Bankrate on Twitter | Bankrate on Facebook

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Documents obtained by The Associated Press showed that The Retreat at Twin Lakes officially listed Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch “captain” in their newsletter, indicating that they condoned the role he took on in the neighborhood.

The newsletter advised residents to first call the Sanford police then “please contact our Captain, George Zimmerman … so he can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/09/zimmermans-homeowners-association-could-owe-millions-in-martin-case/

so it looks to me that the big problem that cost the HOA insurance company $1 million to travons parents is that a homeowner writing the newsletter told everyone to call George "our captain" . this is just the kind of "catcha" bullshit that has so many americans hating our legal system.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

And, if the Martins do lodge a wrongful death suit against Zimmerman, he will have to take the stand--he can't avoid it the way he did during the criminal trial--and I think he'll be demolished on cross-examination.

This wouldn't be like his criminal trial, there's a big difference between trying to prove second degree murder and trying to prove someone caused a wrongful death, and the burden of proof is lower in a civil trial.

Whether the Martins want to put themselves through the emotional ordeal of another trial with Zimmerman is another matter. The only judgment they can get is monetary, and the man claims he's indigent. So it may not be worth it to them, on any account, to go through with it. They may also be satisfied that Zimmerman's run-ins with the law, since his acquittal, and his current arrest, is giving the public a better idea of what this man is really like, and that may be enough for them. They may just sit back and watch him hang himself.

This isn't like the O.J. situation, where Fred Goldman was determined to prove, in a civil trial, that O.J. did murder his son, and he accomplished that. We know Zimmerman killed Martin, the only issue would be whether he caused a wrongful death. And, on that score, I think the Martins would have a very strong case.

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@firefly,

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And, if the Martins do lodge a wrongful death suit against Zimmerman,

if? everyone I look at says that under the law they can not.

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@hawkeye10,

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so it looks to me that the big problem that cost the HOA insurance company $1 million to travons parents is that a homeowner writing the newsletter told everyone to call George "our neighborhood watch captain" . this is just the kind of "catcha" bullshit that has so many americans hating our legal system.

The big problem was that Zimmerman appointed himself "the contact person" to be called when any resident called the police. I think I read somewhere that he even had cards printed with his phone number that he handed out to other residents so they could call him. Zimmerman was trying to create the impression he was some sort of liason with the police, that he had some sort of law enforcement function. He wanted to be involved with the police as much as possible. That has nothing to do with being a Neighborhood Watch person, he really was a wannabe cop.

Well, he's certainly been keeping himself involved with the police lately...

The Martins received more than $1 million. They rejected the offer of $1 million, so whatever the settlement amount was, it was more than that.

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@firefly,

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The Martins received more than $1 million.

something like $1,000,200 I am sure, the HOA has no money other than the insurance money.

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@hawkeye10,

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if? everyone I look at says that under the law they can not.

Oh they certainly can bring a wrongful death civil suit against Zimmerman.

He never had a Stand Your Ground hearing--had he been found to have acted in self-defense at such a hearing, he would have had immunity from a civil suit under Florida law.

But, this wasn't a SYG case, and he was found not guilty of second degree murder, and that verdict does not give him immunity from a civil suit.

That's why Benjamin Crump, the Martin's lawyer, keeps saying they haven't decided what to do yet--because the civil suit is an option for them. And Crump is a civil attorney, and quite a good one.

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@firefly,

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That's why Benjamin Crump, the Martin's lawyer, keeps saying they haven't decided what to do yet--because the civil suit is an option for them. And Crump is a civil attorney, and quite a good one.

if they won would they be in line before his current debts to his lawyers to collect the money from the book and movie deals?

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
And, if the Martins do lodge a wrongful death suit against Zimmerman,

if? everyone I look at says that under the law they can not.

They can file the lawsuit, but it will be automatically dismissed and they will then be forced to pay any legal bills that Mr. Zimmerman incurred in getting it dismissed.

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@hawkeye10,

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if they won would they be in line before his current debts to his lawyers to collect the money from the book and movie deals?

Get real, there aren't going to be any book or movie deals.

Unless someone offers him a starring role in a porno flick.

The only possibility for Zimmerman to get any money is from his suit against NBC. And there hasn't been any movement on that suit since last March, and that's not an easy one to win, and NBC will fight it tooth and nail.

If the Martins did win a civil suit against him, they'd have to line-up with both his previous lawyers and his estranged wife to get money from him. If Zimmerman gets any money from NBC, he'll never see any of it--it will wind up attached to pay off his debts, any judgments against him, and the amount Shellie is demanding.

Fred Goldman never saw any money from the judgment he won against O.J., but his motive for bringing the civil suit really wasn't monetary, and I don't think the motive would be monetary for the Martins either. I think for both of them "justice" would be the main motive, since in both cases, the person who killed their son was acquitted in a criminal trial.

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@oralloy,

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They can file the lawsuit, but it will be automatically dismissed and they will then be forced to pay any legal bills that Mr. Zimmerman incurred in getting it dismissed.

No, oralloy, you are wrong.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

No, oralloy, you are wrong.

That could be used in response to any of his posts. He's not had an easy time of it recently. He's just confirmed he's suffering from impotence on another thread.

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@firefly,

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they'd have to line-up with both his previous lawyers and his estranged wife to get money from him.

way to not answer the question. it seems like oldest debts should get paid first but I dont know what the law says on this.

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@hawkeye10,

I'm not sure, I think a court judgment might take precedence over an old bill.

If the man has no money, the whole issue is rather academic.

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@hawkeye10,

It does not matter as the stand you ground law offer protections from lawsuits for daring to exercise the right of self defense so good luck to Trayvon parents trying to get the crime victim of their dead son to paid them for killing him,

Beside the legal shield the law offer to Zimmerman, a civil suit unlike the criminal trial would allow all the information concerning their son character or lack of same to come out in a court.

The settlement by the home owners insurance company was shameful but something that insurance companies do all the time and it was done before the verdict of innocent where Trayvon parents had the strongest bargaining position.

All in all the chance of a civil suit against Zimmerman is in the same class as Holder filing civil right charges again Zimmerman as near to zero as you can get.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

If a black man was prowling around my neighbourhood after dark,
I hope somebody like Zimmy would be tailing him..

BillRM wrote:

If anyone of any color was prowling around in the rain
I would hope someone was keeping an eye on him while I am in my nice
dry home and on the computer.

YES. I don 't want any whites stealing my stuff, either.
If I did, then I 'd give it to them.

(Actually, I DID give it to them. In another century,
I was on my way home in the Times Square area about 1AM.
I saw a couple across 8th Avenue about 44th St., whose guy
crossed 8th Avenue and approached me. [Firefly, it did not
even occur to me to beat his head on the street.]
He told me that he needed to take his girlfriend home, but that
he was financially embarrassed. Reflexively, I brushed him off.
A few minutes later, upon slow reflection, I was saddened by
my un-generosity over a paltry sum whereof I had little use.
I got sadder, even to the point of returning to the scene,
tho obviously thay 'd gone by then. A few years later, within
a few blocks thereof, thay met me again, in daylight, and
thay gave me another chance. Thay did not recognize me.
The second time, I recognized the scam, but I gave them
a nice satisfaction in fulfillment of my intentions of years earlier
and I had a good laff.) I shud have asked them to vote Republican.

David

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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

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