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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

 
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 12:37 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
I would hope that a juror is still listening to testimony, and won't make up her mind


Hey, I thought the default was supposed to be 'his'. Shocked Confused

All of the jurors in this case are female.
Thomas
 
  2  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 12:37 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
What you are missing is the fact that the jury doesn't even get that instruction unless the defense has already raised the possibility, during trial, that the defendant's actions were possible self defense.

So what? Zimmerman has claimed self-defense, so the jury gets the instruction. Independent of that, Florida's standards of proof for murder and self-defense are not a secret, revealed only to jurors on a need-to-know basis. They are a general fact of Florida law, independent of any particular case, published for the whole world to see. Whether and when the jury learns about them does not matter to them being the law.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 12:40 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
But that person might not be "innocent" at all--think O.J.


Why does everyone focus on OJ, FF, when there are so so many flat out guilty parties who have committed much more heinous crimes -- think George Bush, Dick Cheney, Ronald Reagan, the other Bush, untold numbers of CIA, terrorists that the US shelters, various and sundry military personnel, ... ?

And thru it all you seem unable to see your own hypocrisy.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 12:45 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
All of the jurors in this case are female.


Yes, I knew that, DD.

I guess you don't get some language jokes/sarcasm like I don't get some geek and nerd jokes.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 12:51 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
I guess you don't get some language jokes/sarcasm like I don't get some geek and nerd jokes.

Perhaps it's in the delivery?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 12:52 pm
wasn't much of a joke. the needle on the laugh-o-meter didn't budge.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 12:58 pm
The prosecution is doing very well today, so far.

The medical expert currently on the stand is describing Zimmerman's injuries as insignificant, and, so far, Mark O'Mara hasn't managed to budge her at all.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:02 pm
I've had worse bloody noses than that when blowing into a handkerchief too hard.
parados
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:06 pm
@Thomas,
You are leaving out a lot of the jury instructions Thomas.
Quote:

Aggressor. § 776.041, Fla. Stat.
However, the use of deadly force is not justifiable if you find:
...
Define applicable forcible felony. Define after paragraph 2 if both paragraphs 1 and 2 are given. Forcible felonies are listed in § 776.08, Fla. Stat.
2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless:

a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).

b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

Zimmerman has to show he didn't provoke the force or that he had exhausted every attempt to escape.

Quote:
In deciding whether defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge [him] [her] by the circumstances by which [he] [she] was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing the defendant need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, the defendant must have actually believed that the danger was real.

Zimmerman has to establish that a reasonable person would have believed the danger could only be avoided by shooting Martin.

So it is reasonable doubt as to a reasonable person. It is not reasonable doubt as to Zimmerman alone. Zimmerman's actions are to be judged against the reasonable person standard.
firefly
 
  2  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:11 pm
@MontereyJack,
This medical expert is an excellent and experienced witness. She knows defense attorney's maneuvers, and she's not falling into them. She's not giving O'Mara an inch.

And just watching O'Mara, it's clear defense lawyers have no interest in the truth, they may actively try to distort or obsure the truth--for them, it's really a matter of getting their client off, by hook or by crook.

Her testimony is very damaging to Zimmerman's credibility regarding any realistic fears his life was in danger because of being beaten or having his head pounded on the pavement. She's saying there was no medical evidence of head pounding or of having been pummeled in his face and body.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:14 pm
well said, firefly. Law school is much like boot camp. Your personality is stripped down and rebuilt the way your instructors want it to be. The end goal is not a quest for the truth, but getting your client off by any means necessary. Used to run with a lawyer whos client was caught on somebody else's porch, with somebody else's tv under his arm, and a jimmied open window to that person's house on the porch behind him. He was proud of getting his client released.
Thomas
 
  3  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:20 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
You are leaving out a lot of the jury instructions Thomas.

Of course I am! The complete Florida standard jury instructions comprise a whole book, possibly multi-volume. I can't type that much. The question is, what instructions did I leave out that bear on the standard of proof? Certainly not the ones you are citing. They merely define what constitutes an unjustified use of force. But it's still the prosecution that needs to do the proving.

Parados wrote:
Zimmerman has to show he didn't provoke the force or that he had exhausted every attempt to escape.

For the n-th time, no he doesn't! The prosecution has to prove --- beyond a reasonable doubt --- that Zimmerman did provoke, and did not exhaust. If the defense did happen to end up proving something, that would be an extra. It would not be necessary for getting Zimmerman off the hook.
JTT
 
  0  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:30 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
Law school is much like boot camp. Your personality is stripped down and rebuilt the way your instructors want it to be. The end goal is not a quest for the truth, but getting your client off by any means necessary


That is arrant nonsense, MJ.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:31 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
And just watching O'Mara, it's clear defense lawyers have no interest in the truth, they may actively try to distort or obsure the truth--


Whoa Nellie!!!!!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  2  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:39 pm
I can see no way at all that there is no reasonable doubt in this case as it pertains to Florida Law.

I wonder how long the riots will last?
parados
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:40 pm
@Thomas,

No, but I guess we will just disagree. An allegation by the prosecution that is not questioned by the defense will be accepted by the jury. The defense will have to provide evidence to supply that reasonable doubt.
JTT
 
  0  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:41 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Florida Law


An oxymoron to be sure.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 01:57 pm
@parados,
in the end - you can have anything you want in law books and other peoples guarantees, it all depends on what the jury thinks, period. Prosecution needs 6, defense 1 for possible future trial, 6 for no new trail.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 02:49 pm
Persecution now flailing...

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/detective-returns-stand-zimmerman-trial

Quote:
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — Prosecutors want to bring up George Zimmerman's school records at his murder trial to show he knew about Florida's stand-your-ground law. Defense attorneys are arguing they are irrelevant.

Prosecutors asked a judge Tuesday to allow them to introduce school records showing Zimmerman took a class that addressed Florida's self-defense law. They say it will show he had knowledge of the law, even though he claimed he didn't in an interview with talk show host Sean Hannity. The interview was played for jurors Tuesday.

The judge said she would rule later Tuesday.

Prosecutors also want to introduce a job application Zimmerman made to a police agency in Virginia and an application to ride around with Sanford police officers....
gungasnake
 
  2  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 02:53 pm
Media now also flailing...

http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.mediaite.com/tv/as-zimmerman-prosecution-implodes-a-media-invested-in-his-guilt-grows-more-shrill/

Quote:

“It’s dangerous for America the way were doing this as a trial in the media with the whole nation as jury.” This observation about the trial of George Zimmerman for the murder of Florida teen Trayvon Martin in 2012 by MSNBC host Touré was as true when he made it, in March of last year, as it is today. Too few, it seems, have taken his advice to heart.


Since the Zimmerman trial began, the instant analysis of the nationally televised case – meriting near wall-to-wall coverage on the cable news outlets – has not been favorable to the prosecution. State witness after state witness has had their credibility impugned or introduced reasonable doubt that Zimmerman’s actions may not meet the threshold necessary to convict him for second degree murder. And as the state’s case against Zimmerman grows thinner, the tone of those in the media who have invested a significant portion of the last 16 months in an effort to indict him in the court of public opinion has grown more caustic.

This phenomenon began on June 28 after the prosecution’s star witness and Martin’s friend, Rachel Jeantel, took the stand to testify that she was on the phone with the deceased teen when fatal fight with Zimmerman began.

Her testimony was nothing short of a disaster for the prosecution. She was combative, she was reprimanded for being contemptuous of the proceedings, she admitted to reversing assertions made in deposition, and she introduced the fact that Martin had racially profiled Zimmerman (disclosing that Martin had used the slur “cracker” to describe him).

It was then that the media commentators invested in Zimmerman’s guilt went on the defense. MSNBC contributor Goldie Taylor – one of the first media commentators to don a hooded sweatshirt to protest Martin’s unnecessary murder — told MSNBC host Karen Finney on Tuesday of last week that Jeantel was not only not discredited, but she has as much credibility, “speaking from her cultural lens,” as a “Ph. D.”

Taylor said that “unfortunate voices online” and “across other networks” had attacked Jeantel’s ability to be articulate her thoughts as well as her physical features. Taylor later clarified in a tweet that she was not referring to any television networks and “other networks” only applied to social media outlets....
0 Replies
 
 

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