1
   

Europe's Old Disease Returns

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:04 pm
Quote:

And Noam Chomsky's diatribes against Israel and the United States are mild compared with Karl Marx's anti-Semitism in "On the Jewish Question," published in 1843. In language that anticipates José Bové and the worst of the anti-globalists, Marx insists, "emancipation from usury and money, that is, from practical, real Judaism, would constitute the emancipation of our time." Marx descended from a line of Jewish rabbis, but his father converted the family to Protestantism; Marx, the son, later managed to come up with some of the ugliest anti-Semitic coinages. When he wanted to denigrate his rival, political philosopher Ferdinand Lassalle, he called him a "Jew Nigger."


And what was your reaction to paragraphs like this little gem?

This is a textbook example of propaganda and a crime against anything called reason.

Is the author writing about Noam Chomsky or Atta or Marx?

He is trying to link modern voices of dissent with one of the terrorist bombers and authors in 1843. But he makes no reasonable links.

Walter, what is your reaction to this charge -- is criticizing the US and Israel a form of anti-semitism?

Are voices of dissent such as Noam Chomsky and other "European liberals" who dare to question the actions of the US the same as terrorists and Nazi'?

That is what this article is saying.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this line of thinking?
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:09 pm
AU, I was born and raised in Eastern Europe, part very much part of the Holocaust and the etnic cleansing of Hungarians, Germans, Ruthenian, and other. I have never encountered anti-semitic preaching personally - except one classmate of mine at university, no other people in the wide circle I know is an in-bred anti-semite. Be more cautious before you use such sweeping generalizations, please.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:09 pm
au1929 wrote:
I guess he feels that since he generated the forum he does not have to abide by it's rules.


I called you no names. I simply pointed out yet another example of the racism you spew. To which you replied with vulgarities as is your custom.

Again, when you spew racist drek I will point it out. And you, in turn, will respond with your vulgarisms.

Pointing out racism in a post is not against the rules, your vulgarisms are. But that won't stop you from making claims that I broke the rules with you.

The vulgarisms are your only stock and store. Not mine. I have never responded to you on that level and don't plan to.

Regards
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:35 pm
Craven.
Try looking in the mirror.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:36 pm
As predicted Au, your only stock and store.

You profess a hatred of the French, and say Europeans have "inborn" deficiencies.

When I say that this is racism you respond with your vulgarisms.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:48 pm
Craven
Quote:
Au's racism on display again.


If that is not calling someone a racist, what is? Try weaseling out of that. I am sure you will come up with something.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:52 pm
Craven
Quote:
Say Europeans have "inborn" deficiencies.


If you are going to quote what I said at least be accurate
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:52 pm
Hmmmmm - seems to me that several of us are speaking from countries with strong European cultural roots. I, for one. Remember, Great Britain has a strong anti-Semitic history as well, though spared some of the excesses of the Inquisition.

Do those who are pointing out Europe's faults believe it all stopped with the sea voyages that marked our forebears' arrival in new countries (to commence holocausts against their indigenous inhabitants, as it happens)?

We also have a neo-Nazi movement - though fringe - and our left is partially (though by no means universally) unsympathetic to Israel - we get crap slogans painted places - as does the US.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:53 pm
Nothing to "weasel" out of Au.

I said that your comment was racist.

Au, how can you profess a hatred for French and allege "inborn" deficiencies in Europeans and still bristle at hearing others say that think that it is a racist position?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 04:58 pm
gfhaahglaafdsaldsigreaui ashdfpqa;lkjprhga <<Bangs head on keyboard in frustration>>

Being "unsympathetic to Israel" is not anti-semitism. That is a logical fallacy and a propaganda technique.

To suggest that the left is connected to the Neo-Nazi's is ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 05:08 pm
Craven
Quote:
Au's racism on display again.

Explain it away if you can.
I should note that I couldn't care less whether you think I am a racist or not. What I do mind are your snide comments.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 05:23 pm
I'm sorry that they bother you Au. I really mean that.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 05:47 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Did you all read this article before giving the the respect of a reply?


I did not read the whole thing. I cannot stomach such an amount of cheap propaganda.

The best you can do is to add up some inteligent humor, like Setanta did.

If taken even a little seriously cheap propaganda leads to unreasonable "debate".

That's what, i fear, is happening in this thread.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 06:08 pm
dlowan wrote:
Hmmmmm - seems to me that several of us are speaking from countries with strong European cultural roots. I, for one. Remember, Great Britain has a strong anti-Semitic history as well, though spared some of the excesses of the Inquisition.



That's a non-starter. In every instance in which Jews were expelled from Britain, one can demonstrate that Jews were owed, in the aggregate, a great deal of money by the royal family and the "overmighty lords." There is no history of pogroms in Britain, although a casual anti-semitism is apparent--even the great bleeding heart of Dickens felt no qualm about ascribing vile character to Fagin in Oliver Twist. After each expulsion, the Jews drifted back, and the illegal entry was overlooked, because in ages with no banking and no credit instruments, their primitive forms of venture capitalism were essential to an otherwise almost lifeless exchange economy. Usually, this meant that they were a prey of petty theives and blackmailers, but Charles II put an end to that after the Restoration. When you read this, keep in mind that i am entirely of Irish descent, and throughout most of my young adulthood, grew increasingly enraged at the Brits as i learned more about their pogroms against the Irish--one can not reasonably allege that i am a commentator biased in favor of the Brits. Catholics in Ireland and in Britain suffered far more in the 148 years from the passage of the Acts of Suppression to the Catholic Emancipation Act than did Jews in the entire history of the kingdom.

As for the Inquisition, in 350 years, they executed about 5,000 people (Catholic academics in Spain insist the number is closer to 3,000). There is a wealth of documentation from court records that people convicted of civil crimes attempted to commit heretical acts or make heretical statements in the hope of being turned over to the Inquisition, as the universal opinion of Spanish peasants was that they would be far and away better off in the church prisons than in royal prisons. The Indies Commission, created at the instigation of Las Casas, the priest who accompanied Columbus' first expedition to the "new world," was a branch of the Inquisition the purpose of which was to regulate the treatment of the indigenous populations of the Spanish empire. Although we many not think much of how they lived as reparmientos, they were no worse off than the peons of Estramadura, from which the overwhelming majority of Conquistadores came, and many of whom, such as Pizarro, had been peons themselves, until the Reconquista and the Conquista of the new world offered them a military path out of poverty. By contrast, in Germany, tens of thousands of people, mostly women, were executed as witches in the 17th century alone--conservative estimates run to 30,000, and not unreasonable scholars put the figure at between 60- and 80,000.

Additionally, in Germany and Poland, Jews were strictly regulated. In Germany, most cities had regulations which prohibited Jews with estates of less than a set figure to inhabit the city, thereby making the stereotype of the rich Jew moneylender a self-fulfilling prophecy. In 1763, against his inclinations, Moses Mendelssohn (grandfather of the brilliant composer, Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy) petitioned Frederick II for a release from legal disabilities, and status as Schutzjude, a "protected Jew," meaning he would have unrestricted rights of residence in Berlin (and Berlin only). Jews in Berlin needed royal permission to marry, or change residence, and in Berlin, could only do so if upon the occasion of their wedding, they purchased a set amount of porcelain from the state factory in Berlin. Mendelssohn started out as a street sweeper (streets were then so full of horse manure that they required sweeping several times a day), and had made himself a wealthy man, and a valued director of many christian commercial enterprises. He highly valued education, and pursued his own to the extent that he was by then known as "the Socrates of Germany." He also unflinchingly worked for Jewish emancipation, and so was also known as "the Luther of the German Jews." Schutzjude status was heritable, but only by a single child of the holder of that status. Mendelssohn at first held out against the petition, as being a surrender to institutionalized anti-semitism, but christian friends convinced him that he could best work for other Jews if he had the special status. In the history of monarchical Europe, Frederick is accounted, justifiably, one of the most, if not the most enlightened and tolerant of rulers. Nevertheless, he managed to "lose" the petition, and had to be harried by the likes of Lessing and Kant to sign the new petition which was promptly drawn up. He once said: "To oppress the Jews never brought any propserity to any government." Nevertheless, Frederick refused to admit Mendelssohn to the Academy in Berlin, saying it would give offense to the Empress of Russia (Catherine II, formerly the German princess Sophia of Anhalt-Dessau) who had recently been made a member; and when he took part in the first partition of Poland, expelled from those districts any Jew with an estate worth less than 1000 crowns (the old self-fulfilling stereotype of the rich Jew moneylender). This was a man who was considered a radical for his "tolerance."

All in all, were i to wake up tomorrow a Jew in 17th century Europe, i'd haul my fat @ss to Britain just as fast as i could; if i woke up tomorrow accused of heresy, i'd hope like hell it were the Inquisition i faced, and not the tender mercy of the Lutherans, the Calvinists or the Anabaptists.

But old stereotypical prejudices die hard, don't they, my good Protestant friends?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 07:32 pm
Au weren't just speaking of pogroms, Setanta - he spoke of Anti-semitism. Certainly, GB was a less horrendous environment, but my point is that anti-semitism is part of the European tradition - including GB - to say this is not so is patently ridiculous.

My question stands - do Au and his ilk believe that anti-semitism stopped at the ocean - or was perhaps sicked up with the breakfasts on the voyages?

E Brown - if you were speaking to me, I KNOW that being unsympathetic to Israel does not equate with anti-semitism - although I do agree that amongst some on the left - at least here - it can sail perilously close - in my experience.

Au - I would like to see some evidence - other than the opinions given in the article - of what the writer claims re left wing intellectuals etc.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 10:13 pm
I read the article again carefully (just skimmed it the first time) and it's saying much more than "criticizing the United States and Israel constitutes anti-semitism." For example:

Quote:
In France, for instance, 20 Jewish schools and synagogues have been targets of arson or firebombing in the past three years. In Germany, anti-Semitic incidents -- including speech -- rose from 150 in 2001 to 1,594 in 2002.

Quote:
The EU's controversial report, "Manifestations of Anti-Semitism in the European Union," landed like a bombshell. It noted that some of the insults, attacks, and acts of vandalism (against synagogues, schools, and cemeteries) came from the usual suspects on the right, and that some of the violence was committed by young, poor Arabs. But it fingered two other groups: Europe's left and militant Islamists.

Quote:
Tam Dalyell, a senior Labor politician and Parliament's longest-serving member, decried the influence of what he called a "Jewish cabal" on British foreign policy (several of Prime Minister Tony Blair's advisers, including the foreign secretary, are of Jewish descent).

Quote:
The BBC, which has contractual and personnel ties with the Arab satellite broadcaster, Al-Jazeera, was quick last January to fire Robert Kilroy-Silk, a longtime television commentator who wrote a newspaper column asking why Westerners should admire societies that, among other things, produce "suicide bombers, limb amputators, women repressors." But the BBC didn't even bother to censure Tom Paulin, another network commentator who, in an interview with an Egyptian newspaper, said that "Brooklyn-born Jews" living on the West Bank "should be shot dead."

Quote:
In arguments once made mainly by the Nazis or the Muslim Brotherhood, the Guardian and Independent newspapers regularly depict the United States as under the sinister control of the Jewish lobby. Typical of this trope is a piece by Robert Fisk in a 2002 edition of the Independent. Fisk argued, at 3,600-word length, that Jewish money essentially controls the U.S. Congress.

Quote:
Socialist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin -- his eyes then firmly planted on the forthcoming elections -- responded to the arson of a synagogue with the comment that the French police could hardly be expected to protect Jews wherever they went.

Quote:
The transfer of an essentially Nazi ideology into Islamist hatred of Jews reached its purest form on 9/11. The thinking of Mohammed Atta, the terrorist ringleader, echoed directly the Nazis' and Qutb's obsessions. Atta believed that "Jews control America" and that "Americans want to take over the world so Jews can amass capital," according a member of Atta's inner circle in Hamburg, who testified at the trial of another member. Said another: "Atta's world view was based on an anti-Semitic and anti-American position. His views had a Nazi framework. World Jewry was for him enemy number one. He considered New York to be the center of world Jewry."

This article can't be simply dismissed as saying people are only whining about Israel and the US. There's some real trouble brewing here.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 11:15 pm
Quote:
In Germany, anti-Semitic incidents -- including speech -- rose from 150 in 2001 to 1,594 in 2002.


So it's really still a number round about 150 - alone more than 400 "incidents" have been investigations against anti-semitism online, here: against websites hosted in the USA.
These can't be prosecuted, however, since freedom of speech etc.

Denying the holocaust is a crime here (in nearly all Europe) as well, btw.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 11:58 pm
Denying the holocaust is a crime? I didn't know that. I suppose wearing a swastika is prohibited also. I'm not sure I agree with that, because we Americans are accustomed to being able to say any kind of stupid thing we want to without being arrested for it. But I can understand the reasons why it's a crime.

There's more news about the anti-semitism. This is WAY more than just anti-Israel and anti-US speech.

Quote:
EU 'covered up' attacks on Jews by young Muslims
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
(Filed: 01/04/2004)

Jewish leaders accused the European Union yesterday of covering up the true scale of anti-Semitic violence carried out by Muslim youths, reigniting a controversy over Europe's failure to confront Islamic extremism at home.

A study released by the EU's racism and xenophobia monitoring centre astounded experts by concluding that the wave of anti-Jewish persecution over the last two years stemmed from neo-Nazi or other racist groups.

"The largest group of the perpetrators of anti-Semitic activities appears to be young, disaffected white Europeans," said a summary released to the European Parliament . "A further source of anti-Semitism in some countries was young Muslims of North African or Asian extraction.

"Traditionally, anti-Semitic groups on the extreme Right played a part in stirring opinion," it added.

The headline findings contradict the body of the report. This says most of the 193 violent attacks on synagogues, Jewish schools, kosher shops, cemeteries and rabbis in France in 2002 - up from 32 in 2001 - were "ascribed to youth from neighbourhoods sensitive to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, principally of North African descent.

"The percentage attributable to the extreme Right was only nine per cent in 2002," it said.

The report on Belgium said most of the fire-bomb and machine-gun attacks on Jewish targets were the result of a spillover from the Palestinian intifada.

The European Jewish Congress accused the EU watchdog of twisting data from the 15 member states to suit its own ideological bias, describing the report as a catalogue of "enormous contradictions, errors and omissions."

"We cannot let it be said that the majority of anti-Semitic incidents come from young, disaffected white men. This is in complete contradiction with the facts recorded by the police," it said.

The EU suppressed a report last year by German academics concluding that Arab gangs were largely responsible for a sudden surge in the anti-Jewish violence, allegedly because the findings were politically unpalatable.

Victor Weitzel, who wrote a large section of yesterday's far more detailed study, told The Telegraph that the latest findings had been consistently massaged by the EU watchdog to play down the role of North African youth. "The European Union seems incapable of facing up to the truth on this," he said. "Everything is being tilted to ensure nice soft conclusions.

"When I told them that we need to monitor the inflammatory language being used by the Arab press in Europe, this was changed to the 'minority press'.

"Honestly, it's incredible," he said.

Mr Weitzel's 48-page section - compiled with a Polish academic, Magadalena Sroda - is the fruit of months of interviews with Jewish leaders across Europe. While far-Right and traditional "Christian" forms of anti-Semitism still exist, the report homes in on a new form of "anti-Zionist Left" prejudice.

This demonises Israel and subtly leaks into prejudice against all Jews. The study describes Belgium as a country where anti-Semitism has become almost fashionable among the Left-leaning intelligentsia.

But most of the report focuses on Jew-baiting by Muslim youths. It paints an alarming picture of daily life for France's 600,000 Jews, the EU's biggest community.

In schools, Jewish children are beaten with impunity, and teachers dare not talk about the Holocaust for fear of provoking Muslim pupils, it said.

Britain, which saw a 75 per cent rise in incidents last year, was gently rebuked for hesitating to take "politically awkward" measures against Islamic radicals.

"The government is very anxious not to upset the Muslim community," the report said.

Telegraph.co.uk

This quote bothers me a little:

Quote:
"The government is very anxious not to upset the Muslim community," the report said.

Does this mean that the EU is trying to keep a low profile to avoid being attacked by Muslims? Why can't they stand up to these people and hold them to the same standards of non-violence as any other EU citizen?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:07 am
Quote:
EU Jews face increase in violence
Ian Black in Brussels
Thursday April 1, 2004
The Guardian

Attacks on Jews have increased in five EU countries in the last two years with white males rather than Muslims being blamed for many of them, according to a report published yesterday.
The study by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) contrasted with the controversial findings of research carried out in Berlin last year, which said young Arabs and Muslims were mainly responsible for rising anti-semitism.

The EUMC cited incidents in Britain, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany. It said: "Although it is not easy to generalise, the largest group of perpetrators ... appears to be young, disaffected white Europeans.

"A further source of anti-semitism ... was young Muslims of North African or Asian extraction.

"Traditionally anti-Semitic groups on the extreme right played a part in stirring opinion."

By far the biggest rise in anti-semitic violence was in France, home to Europe's largest Jewish community, where the number of incidents rose six-fold in 2002 over the previous year. "There were many incidents of Jewish people assaulted and insulted, attacks against synagogues, cemeteries and other Jewish property, and arson against a Jewish school," the report said.

Statistics for Britain "suggest ... a recent increase in both physical and verbal attacks against Jews".

Figures showed 350 reported anti-semitic incidents in 2002, including assault, arson, and the desecration of gravestones - a 13% rise from the previous year. No "extreme violence" was recorded.

The worst incident involved 40 young men shouting racial abuse and punching and kicking four Jewish boys at Bushey, Hertfordshire in January 2003.

In the first quarter of 2003 there was a 75% increase in incidents compared to the same period of 2002.

In 2002 there were violent attacks on two synagogues, and in 2003 there were two cases of suspected arson and several attacks on Jewish cemeteries.

The question of who perpetrates such attacks remains highly sensitive, following uproar over suggestions that the Berlin Technical University report was initially suppressed by the EUMC because it blamed Muslim immigrants and pro-Palestinian groups angered by Israeli policy in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The 344-page document, released to the European parliament in Strasbourg, took a more cautious approach.

It said: "In general, on the basis of available data and looking at the EU as a whole, it is problematic to make general statements with regard to the perpetrators of anti-semitic acts.

"In some countries the data collection is reasonably reliable, in some countries the bulk of the evidence is from the perceptions of victims, which are difficult to verify, and in other countries there is no evidence at all. This underlines the need for better official mechanisms for the recording of incidents."

The report urged EU governments to cooperate more closely in the fight against racism and suggested that textbooks should be checked for bias and teachers trained to heighten awareness of cultural and religious differences.

Cobi Benatoff, the president of the European Jewish Congress, said he noted the difference in emphasis in the two reports as to who was behind the violence and welcomed the new document.

"The report is confirmation of exactly what we Jewish citizens feel, that the old cancer is back," he said.

Antonio Vitorino, the European commissioner for justice, said the report showed "very clearly that fears about developments are becoming more and more pressing in Europe".

Attacks against Jews were "relatively rare", in Greece, Italy, Spain and Austria, but anti-semitic comments were "particularly virulent", in daily life, the report said.
SOURCE


The report/study by the EUMC is - as pdf-file - to be found HERE
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 05:49 am
dlowan wrote:
Au weren't just speaking of pogroms, Setanta - he spoke of Anti-semitism. Certainly, GB was a less horrendous environment, but my point is that anti-semitism is part of the European tradition - including GB - to say this is not so is patently ridiculous.


Either you've missed my point altogether, or you're willfully ignoring it. I responded to this statement on your part:

Miss Wabbit wrote:
Hmmmmm - seems to me that several of us are speaking from countries with strong European cultural roots. I, for one. Remember, Great Britain has a strong anti-Semitic history as well, though spared some of the excesses of the Inquisition.


Therefore, i wanted to demonstrate two things--that there never was institutionalized anti-semitism in Britain comparable to what occured on the continent. Your garden variety "stout English yoeman" had the same casual contempt for the Kelt, the Frenchman, the Spaniard; for the Catholic, the Presbyterian (as regards the Scots Kirk), the Lutheran. In short, their prejudices were the normal biproduct of an unusually parochial bigotry.

Which brings me to the second point i wished to make. That is that the most virulent prejudice of the English, one which persists in the English-speaking world, is anit-Catholic. There definitely were what can be characterized as pogroms against catholics. As late as the 1780's London was convulsed by days-long violent riots against Catholics or anyone or anything perceived as partaking of "Papism." Casually tossing off a remark such as "spared the excesses of the Inquistion" without, apparently, really knowing the scale of Inquisition activities, especially in comparison to Protestant witch burnings (which remained a very popular spectator sport in Scotland long after the practice had been suppressed in Germany) seems to me either naive, ill-informed or disingenuous. Inasmuch as this casual contempt for Catholics and their professed religion is so ingrained in the English-speaking world, and the first-class job that 16th and 17th century Protestants did in propaganda smears against Catholics, heavily relying upon manufactured horror stories about the Inquisition, i suspect that ill-informed is the best explanation. The Inquisition was a product of its time, and i see no qualitative difference between its activities and the slaughter of Catholics in England under Bloody Mary, or of Catholics in Ireland under a long line of monarchs. The proponents of the Inquisition saw its work as beneficial; i've little doubt that the "stout English yoemen" who gained valuable estates from the former church property in England and Ireland as a result of the activities of their monarchs considered that "work" to be beneficial.
0 Replies
 
 

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