3
   

Is this justice for Kenya or is it too late?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 02:32 pm
@Foofie,
"we are the bestest and brightest humans to ever walk this Earth!"....throwing our ancestors under the bus to get our ego boost, well, what are they going to do about it?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 07:32 pm
@izzythepush,
DAVID wrote:
Shud u be held responsible for your father 's debts??
How about your uncle 's? Grandfather? Cousin ?
The guy across the street ?
izzythepush wrote:

No, of course not.

If you follow Hawkeye's ridiculous line of reasoning you might as well say
that international treaties are all null and void after thirty years. It's just nonsense.
I doubt that thay r enforceable on other than
a voluntary basis (short of going to war; yes ?)

If I were asked for a handout for the Mau s, I 'd refuse.
I can find a better charity, or spend it on myself; ( I try to be selfish ).
Maybe I can find a charity in support of SELFISHNESS.
( On the other hand, I might have a soft spot in my heart for Cuban refugees. )

If u were hit-up for a voluntary contribution for the Mau s,
wud u give it to them, or spend it on your family, friends or other favorites, Izzy ??





David
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 01:45 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Some things are the responsibility of the state and should be paid for through taxes, like health care.

No other alternative is acceptable, the same with compensation.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:10 am
If reparations are going to be paid, they should only be paid to the people that were actually harmed.
Not to their offspring, not to their estates, but to the people that were harmed.

We have this same debate here in the states every few years, about paying reparations to the descendants of slaves.
My answer is the same.

I will gladly pay reparations to the people that suffered, but not to their descendants.
I did not cause the problem, I did not profit in any way from slave labor, nor did I own slaves.

I personally think that anyone demanding reparations should be made to show how they personally were harmed, if they cant then they don't get anything.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:19 am
@mysteryman,
you should take a look at the black farmer reparation program, where we did not require any proof that the person was ever a farmer under the theory that this was an unreasonable burden. so of course classes were set up to walk blacks through the paperwork of filing a claim, and in many places just about everyone showed up. FREE MONEY!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 12:54 pm
@mysteryman,
It's just going to survivors.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 01:26 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

It's just going to survivors.

it will just go to people who are still alive who were alive at the time. having been harmed is not a requirement.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 03:36 pm
@izzythepush,
Read the bloody article, it's going to the victims.
0 Replies
 
Arjunakki
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 08:23 am
@mysteryman,
Quote:
I did not profit in any way from slave labor, nor did I own slaves.


I beg to differ. It is true YOU did not cause the problem but you benefitted from all that slave labor produced, a better economy, more so especially in the US southern states where the economy was built on slave labor. Slave labor produced many white millionaires via the tobacco industry, the cotton trade, and many of these profits extended to the US North via trade. We all benefitted to one degree or another.

When it comes to reparations, uh, that's a ticklish subject. I, personally, do not believe there is enough money to atone for the suffering of millions of human slaves in America, the discrimination, the lynchings, the cruelty which to a degree in some parts of the deep south is still going on. (Racism will never be entirely extinguished because of who we are.) I do not think reparations is the answer, but an equalizing of all laws for EVERYONE would go a long way toward justice.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 09:04 am
@Arjunakki,
I'm just amazed that what is essentially a British situation has attracted such an extreme reaction from Americans. Obviously reparation is still quite a thorny topic the other side of the pond.
Arjunakki
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 09:16 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:

I'm just amazed that what is essentially a British situation has attracted such an extreme reaction from Americans. Obviously reparation is still quite a thorny topic the other side of the pond.


I'm surprised that YOU, being such a perceptive individual, should be surprised. You seem fully abreast of world events and particularly aware when it comes to American politics. Racism plays a cultural and political role in how justice is perceived here in America, despite there being the first African American as President of the US.

In many practical settings benefitting citizens, the British seem far more advanced than the US.
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 09:22 am
@Arjunakki,
I beg to differ. A slave economy did not make for a better economy. There is a reason that the vast majority of business owners in the US were not slave owners and many that once were, had given up the practice. Owning slaves was expensive. You had to feed, clothe, house them. You had to hire management, to watch, discipline, shoot them if they stole a loaf of bread, then you lost on your investment. It wasn't a career path for the faint of heart.
Not to mention the taxes and lawmen, jails and legislation just to keep people as chattel. Yup, Slave economies are expensive propositions... Not a great model for an economy, much less a sustainable one.
Yes, some people made fortunes off the backs of slave labour, but it did not benefit everyone at the time. How could it possibly benefit everyone at a later date?
Trade routes are inevitable despite the manner of production. Where ever people live they gotta eat and, by law, wear clothing.
As for reparations, paying victims makes sense. Paying descendants? If property was taken, it should be given back or paid for. But for the crimes or suffering their family endured, how do you put a price on an awful memory?
If I could, I'd go back and sue the bejesus out of queen vickie and her ilk for all kinds of pain suffered at the hands of my fore-family. Realistically though, when does it end. What piece of land is devoid of bloodshed or hurt?

Arjunakki
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 10:09 am
@Ceili,
Quote:
I beg to differ. A slave economy did not make for a better economy. There is a reason that the vast majority of business owners in the US were not slave owners and many that once were, had given up the practice.


I am at variance with only one aspect of your excellent post.

Slavery transformed America into an economic power. SLAVE LABOR WAS AN ECONOMIC POWER FOR THE US, ESPECIALLY THE SOUTH! (I will readily agree slavery should never be used to build an economy, but that does not detract from the reality that enslaved men, women and children labored to make millions for their masters.) Goggle the history of US southern economic power. Some slave owners had over 300 slaves and these slave reproduced and reproduced and reproduced, generation after generation after generation, some fathered by their white masters and that is one of the reasons there are so many African Americans of a different color in America.....the white strain can be easily seen along with European DNA strain.

Quote:

As for reparations, paying victims makes sense. Paying descendants? If property was taken, it should be given back or paid for. But for the crimes or suffering their family endured, how do you put a price on an awful memory?
What piece of land is devoid of bloodshed or hurt?


Of course there is no amount of monetary value that will make up for the past misery of the people of Kenya but, in my opinion, they should be given an annual allotment of money to help in development of their country, to help their economy recover, after all the British government is largely responsible because of its former colonization.

Your post is a broad-minded one, Ceili....
0 Replies
 
Arjunakki
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 10:39 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:

So does this finally close a rather grubby chapter of British imperialism, or is it too little too late? Obama's father was one of the victims, how much does that influence the decision?


You know, I'm just now reading your article; I had thought it dealt exclusively with British rule in Kenya. Those lawyers who were castrated should each get $20 Mil. But whatever the govenment offers will go a long way to smooth the situation. I think South Africa's Bishop TuTu's letter might possibly have influenced the British government. You are correct, Obama's father was born in Kenya. Somehow or another I cannot see Obama personally influencing the British government in this matter, but some UK officials might see it as an appeasement to the current administration. What penetrating insight you have, Izzythepush.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 10:43 am
@Arjunakki,
Quote:
In many practical settings benefitting citizens, the British seem far more advanced than the US.

a former superpower that has had a long slip to nothing special which is continuing to slip is in desperate need of some reason to feel good about themselves....great work in LIBYA btw!
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 10:47 am
Most countries wilfully edit out the dark, unholy, inconvenient parts of the national story - at least, the UK starts to bring some light in British's military and colonial history. And to take responsibility.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 10:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
it reminds me about how out of work actors go to rehab, after alerting the media. next up will be the talk show circuit after they get out and maybe a book.
0 Replies
 
Arjunakki
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 11:13 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

a former superpower that has had a long slip to nothing special which is continuing to slip is in desperate need of some reason to feel good about themselves....great work in LIBYA btw!


The US is on its way to losing its superpower status to China. The US was once thought of as a great nation, but it's grown increasingly impotent by its domestic and foreign policies. In the US big money is a political curse; all these congressmen/women think of is working for their lobbyists, major corporations, banks, whoever pays the highest, and the next election.

One can tell how great a nation is by they way it treats its citizens. In the US, until Obama affordable health care, many people could not afford health insurance, and in fact, many mentally unsound patients whose families could not afford the hospital bill were released onto the streets in Manhattan as a nuisance to bystanders, lunging at them.

In order to balance the US economy, the congress is cutting food stamps and many of these people are middle class people who are working but do not make enough money to pay for car, mortgage, children, medical bills, utility bills, and many times only one spouse is working and the other is ill.

Throughout life we will sometimes get into a rough period where we need just a tiny bit of help from the government, but the current congress is saying "pull yourself up by your bootstraps," but supposing one doesn't have any boots? But the insult supreme, the congress did not want the multi/super rich to pay any additional taxes, that the poor should balance the economy on their back and do without the basics. The current US Republican congress is a worthless do nothing pot of crap! And when I think of the current Republican party I want to vomit.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 12:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
You miss the point as always. This wasn't prompted by some desperate need to feel good about ourselves, we've just had the Olympics, and we did a bang up job.

This was the result of action in the high court. Up until now we've treated the situation in Kenya like handing over a business, with all assets and liabilities. The British government has argued that the Kenyan government is responsible for everything that happened during colonial rule. They've just lost a high court case brought about by some of the victims. The gesture is not as magnanimous as some would think.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 04:45 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I'm just amazed that what is essentially a British situation has attracted such an extreme reaction from Americans. Obviously reparation is still quite a thorny topic the other side of the pond.


Not necessarily "thorny." More like highly sensitive, in my opinion, since a Civil War had to be fought to end slavery. In that context the reparations were ALREADY paid in the blood of Northern soldiers (300,000), whether or not they were pro or anti slavery.

In that context, comparing the two reparation thoughts is just adding apples and oranges, since the Brits that died in any hostilities in Kenya were not dying to maintain the British nation.

I would personally say that reparations that are paid to ANYBODY may just be being paid for spreading a better international image. For example, in my opinion, the German reparations to families of Holocaust survivors was not done because Germans became philo-Semitic [Foofie made a joke], but because Germany wanted to whitewash their image from the Nazi era.



 

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