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@DrewDad,

Quote:

I'm guessing that Multi-Health Systems Inc. is the one that provides the data on how reliable their own test is?

Right, and that data can be scutinized by others in the field of testing.

The same is true of Psych Corp which supplies the Wechsler I.Q. tests to the schools--they provide the reliability/validity data on their tests. How else do you think they evaluate the statistical reliability and validity of tests?

But I'd imagine you don't think those testing experts should be trusted either. Laughing

Quote:

Do they have a rational reason to trust the system?

Go talk to Hawkeye. Laughing

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
Do they have a rational reason to trust the system?

Go talk to Hawkeye.

I'll take that as a "no."

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

I'll take that as a "no."

No, it means I don't find any benefit, to me, of continuing this discussion with you.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
I'm guessing that Multi-Health Systems Inc. is the one that provides the data on how reliable their own test is?

Right, and that data can be scutinized by others in the field of testing.

I hate it when someone scutinizes me.

Seriously, though:

Qualities of a Good Question

Quote:

There are good and bad questions. The qualities of a good question are as follows:

1. Evokes the truth. Questions must be non-threatening. When a respondent is concerned about the consequences of answering a question in a particular manner, there is a good possibility that the answer will not be truthful. Anonymous questionnaires that contain no identifying information are more likely to produce honest responses than those identifying the respondent. If your questionnaire does contain sensitive items, be sure to clearly state your policy on confidentiality.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
I'll take that as a "no."

No, it means I don't find any benefit, to me, of continuing this discussion with you.

I'll take that as a "no," as well.

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@DrewDad,

The reason I have qualms about 'anonymous' is that people are quirky while filling out forms. Some people print well or poorly, some write teeny tiny or big and artfully (or not); if the test is all "blacken" the oval by filling it in within the oval lines, some are better at that hand eye coordination than others. Teachers can see how the papers are collected and remember where students sat. So I question the fullness of the anonymity.

But this is not the purview of the teaching system, in my strong opinion, to know from underage students, whether the survey completers are named or 'anonymous'. Who gave testing companies this right to invade home life? aka, private life. I'll grant if a child is abused that the child's recourse to telling a teacher and having them report it to CPS (or whatever) is ok with me. Although I posit that some of that trust may waver after this. Teachers are best at being there for the kids as wisely as they can be, but that doesn't give them automatic entry to nose on about the home. Just plain no.

As stated by me too many times, just the fact that the teacher passes out these papers sets up a mess - please the teacher, get a better report card; lie your way through the thing (either way, as some damn fool somewhere may answer the "crime" questions YES to cause trouble), or answer truthfully and set yourself up for possible prolonged observation.

I don't give a hoot about the validity (which I doubt) of the test in these conditions. Firefly is totally ignoring the elephant in the room.

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@ossobuco,

The "quirky while filling out forms" should be considered in the survey design.

ossobuco wrote:

Firefly is totally ignoring the elephant in the room.

Yup. Firefly almost always sides with authority figures, though. (I say "almost," but I can't recall a time when she did not side with established authority.)

The cognitive dissonance when those authority figures are in the wrong is almost tangible; she wraps herself in knots trying to justify inappropriate behavior. (Hawkeye is her antithesis, and he does the same thing from the other side. If the authority in question is right, he will tie himself in knots trying to find a way to argue against it.)

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@ossobuco,

very interesting: the board that approved this screen is no longer sitting. three members did not stand for reelection in April and were replaced, one resigned a couple of weeks ago, and the secretary of the board will take over as superintendent next month. I suspect some serious disfunction going on.

I will document the above later today.

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

Firefly is totally ignoring the elephant in the room.

I may be ignoring the elephant you think is in the room.

But I'm focusing on the elephant I see, and that's the SEL (Social Emotional Learning) education programs, which are mandated by standards set by the state of Illinois, and which the schools must demonstrate that they are meeting the goals for. That's what provided a good part of the impetus behind the need to do this testing in Batavia--the test instrument used in Batavia was designed to monitor student progress in achieving SEL goals, as well as to identify those struggling with, or at risk for, social/emotional problems.

You're ignoring the entire movement in education which is behind all of this--and that movement has been going on for quite a while.

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@firefly,

Well, what are the goals, and how are they meeting them? I believe this has already been asked.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

You're ignoring the entire movement in education which is behind all of this--and that movement has been going on for quite a while.

No, I don't think we are.

We're discussing whether the stated goal of the school system justifies invading the privacy of students.

The school may have very good reasons for wanting to gather this information. That does not mean that the students are obligated to divulge the information.

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@firefly,

No, I'm not ignoring it. I don't like it. I don't care if it is the state or Batavia, the elephant is stomping.

I do get it that if this is largely questioned, careers could be shaken up.

Back even in the sixties a friend's mother worked for a testing service, perhaps with similar goals but I don't think so at that time. It was more of a 'what should I do for a career' kind of thing and people paid for being tested.

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@roger,

Quote:

Well, what are the goals...

http://www.isbe.state.il.us/ils/social_emotional/standards.htm

Quote:

how are they meeting them

One way is by targeted discussions in classrooms on social/emotional issues, to heighten students perceptions, awareness, sensitivity, understanding, and ability to cope with these issues, etc.

One motivation for the testing at Batavia was to be able to monitor the progress of social/emotional learning in these students--to give an indication of whether the SEL efforts at the school were effective, or needed to be enhanced or changed--whether they were meeting their goals in SEL, by seeing whether students continued to make social/emotional progress as measured by the test.

Things like bullying, student suicides, drop-out rates, substance abuse, teen pregnancies, violence etc. are all related to this SEL area. Students with better social/emotional functioning have fewer risk factors, and are more likely to succeed academically.

You can read more about SEL here:

http://therulerapproach.org/images/uploads/documents/Elbertson_Brackett__Weissberg_SEL_Overview.pdf

http://casel.org/why-it-matters/benefits-of-sel/sel-prevention/

1 Reply

@firefly,

They could learn the principles of social/emotional standards without having to explain their home life to the state, using their names.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

Who said they had to "explain their home life" on the testing given at Batavia?

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

You're ignoring the entire movement in education which is behind all of this--and that movement has been going on for quite a while.

I don't think we are.

Some of us are questioning it. Others are questioning how it is being implemented.

That the movement "has been going on for quite a while" doesn't make it a good thing.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

No, it's not "Batavia's test", dummy.

that was truly unnecessary

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

That the movement "has been going on for quite a while" doesn't make it a good thing.

So, tell us what makes it a bad thing.

Quote:

Some of us are questioning it. Others are questioning how it is being implemented.

What problems do you see with the way SEL is implemented?

What negative effects of SEL, as a movement in education, concern you, and why?

http://therulerapproach.org/images/uploads/documents/Elbertson_Brackett__Weissberg_SEL_Overview.pdf

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@firefly,

How obvious is that? Their (urrrg) use of drugs or alcohol outside of the school room would qualify. http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/29/school-board-reprimands-teacher-for-tell

I am perfectly aware that many students need help, be it from parents, religious figures, or other authority types including school teachers. If the child is taught some ins and outs of sociology/even social anthropology, and ongoing matters of concern in communities, that's all fine with me, as should be obvious. A good library with a wide variety of books or help with internet searching would be useful. Asking the underaged about alcohol use is not their business from any given student. If the classes are taught well, then the student will come to them for advice, and not have to fill out yet one more peapicking and invasive test.

I'm not promoting a stoned/drunk school population. The premise, though, behind the SEL stuff appears to be that they have full right to know all this detailed info about individual children. Teach your children well, a song said.
Invading privacy is not part of that.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

Quote:

How obvious is that? Their (urrrg) use of drugs or alcohol outside of the school room would qualify.

. Asking the underaged about alcohol use is not their business from any given student.

Any student at Batavia High School, who wants to participate in a very wide range of extra-curricular activities, cannot use tobacco, alcohol, or drugs--at any time, 365 days of the year whether at school, or anywhere else--and is expected to self-report any such use within 48 hours to the school. Penalties get stiffer with each delay beyond that. That's their Student Code of Conduct.

What do you think the school does with all that info on substance use reported by those students? Are there complaints about it not being kept confidential? I'm not finding any.

The testing issue is nothing when compared to the Student Code.

Batavia sets its own rules. They don't seem concerned about most of the issues raised in this thread--if they were, they wouldn't have that Student Code. Communities can set their own standards. The only school district I can directly influence is the one I live in. I'm not concerned with changing Batavia.

2 Replies

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