15
   

We're from the government and we're here to help....

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 12:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
We don't know why they decided to not have the responses to this survey submitted anonymously.

But that doesn't seem to be the main issue in this controversy within that school system--it's how this teacher chose to handle his student's questions, and whether he should have been reprimanded.

There doesn't seem to be any massive outcry, within that school district, about the survey itself, or the school's right to seek such info from the students--given that the students weren't compelled to answer the questions, and given the fact that the students would not have been in any legal difficulty regardless of how they answered the questions or what they admitted to.

As long as the students were free not to answer the questions, their "rights" were not being abused.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 12:42 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

And only one member of the school board voted not to reprimand that teacher--so they generally agreed he did not handle the matter appropriately.


he's on the same freaking board that thought the survey was appropriate to begin with. how do you think most of them would vote?

seriously
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 12:44 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
We don't know why they decided to not have the responses to this survey submitted anonymously.


actually we do, because there was no other reason to put names on the forms. journalists also claim that the intent was to "help" individual students who needed the help, as claimed by staff, and that this was called an "individual assessment". reports could be wrong, but it fits what we know. that this board would go so far as to punish this teacher in itself goes to prove how intent they are to pry into the lives of the students. even just a reprimand for caring that names were attached was wrong, but they also docked his pay and it is expected that he will have to attend some yet to be determined reeducation. this is outrageous.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
But there is no massive outcry, from the community within that school district, about the survey itself, or the motives behind it.

This is your issue--it's not, apparently, the main issue for the majority of people who live in that school district, or who have children in that high school.

The controversy in this school district really isn't about the survey--it's about how this teacher handled his student's questions about it, and whether he should have been disciplined for what he implied to his students with his remarks .

The teacher was wrong, and quite inaccurate, to characterize responding to this survey as a Fifth Amendment issue for his students--it suggests the school was trying to entrap the students in legal difficulties, it casts aspersions on the motives for the survey, and it communicates distrust for the school system that employs this teacher. It's not a situation where the Fifth Amendment is even applicable. He deserved the reprimand. All he had to tell his students was that they were not compelled to answer the questions.

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:07 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
But there is no massive outcry, from the community within that school district, about the survey itself, or the motives behind it.

does this surprise you? Americans are now overwelmingly willing to trade freedom away for promises of help and safety. they are idiots for doing so, but this is where we are today.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:11 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
it casts aspersions on the motives for the survey, and it communicates distrust for the school system that employs this teacher.


that sounds like exactly what parents and teachers should be communicating to the students

hopefully enough voters are paying attention to boot this school board out
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Americans are now overwelmingly willing to trade freedom away for promises of help and safety...

Where has anyone "traded away their freedom" in this situation? School boards are elected and answerable to the community, the students were free not to answer the survey questions, etc.

Maybe the people in this school district just aren't as paranoid as you are.

Maybe they're also concerned with making sure that students at that high school get whatever help and services they need.

Maybe they, rightly, feel that a teacher shouldn't be undermining trust in the school system by mischaracterizing the intent of a school survey, and turning it into a law enforcement issue, by citing the Fifth Amendment.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:26 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
that sounds like exactly what parents and teachers should be communicating to the students

So you'd rather that students be mistrustful of school personnel, than go to them when they have problems with substance abuse, or bullying, or abuse at home, or peer pressure, or emotional issues?

If you feel that way, I can't agree with you.

It's better if the students have trust in the school, and the professional resources there that they can turn to, and are encouraged to seek help, than if they are dissuaded from doing that, with often tragic consequences.
JLNobody
 
  6  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:34 pm
@firefly,
Firefly, as a former tenured teacher in a democracy, I think Mr Dryden behaved very appropriately. First, he was excercising the right of free speech as guaranteed by his tenure status (assuming he is tenured), and he was teaching his students about their constitutional rights in this democracy. The issue was not about whether or not they should trust their school authorities; from the teacher's legitimate point of view it was a teaching moment--about democracy.
hawkeye10
 
  4  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:36 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
So you'd rather that students be mistrustful of school personnel, than go to them when they have problems with substance abuse, or bullying, or abuse at home, or peer pressure, or emotional issues?

all the more reason for the staff to not abuse the trust that is currently placed with them

Quote:
School officials said the survey was intended to identify teens who might pose a risk to themselves and was prompted by a rash of suicides.
.
.
.
School officials and teachers had been working for more than a year to pick the best method for counselors to find students most likely to need help, officials said

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-30/news/ct-tl-batavia-teacher-5th-amendment-20130529_1_school-survey-students-kane-county-school

of course our government thinks that sifting through our phone calls and internet usage is a great way to identify terrorists...so there is nothing new to see here.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  7  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:40 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
So you'd rather that students be mistrustful of school personnel


if school personnel is not respectful of their right to anonymity then students should absolutely be mistrustful

in this case, it appears the teacher/s could be trusted - as they warned the students - but the school board needs to be watched more closely

I don't think children/anyone should be taught to blindly trust authority. There is no upside to that. None.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:44 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Firefly, as a former tenured teacher in a democracy, I think Mr Dryden behaved very appropriately. First, he was excercising the right of free speech as guaranteed by his tenure status (assuming he is tenured), and he was teaching his students about their constitutional rights in this democracy. The issue was not about whether or not they should trust their school authorities; from the teacher's legitimate point of view it was a teaching moment--about democracy.

it is a sad day when practicing the values that you are told to preach gets you punished. the take-away here to the kids is that the adults are lying again.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:50 pm
@ehBeth,
I agree wholeheartedly.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 02:02 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
he was teaching his students about their constitutional rights in this democracy.

But this wasn't a Fifth Amendment issue--the students' Constitutional rights in criminal legal processes, against self-incrimination, which is what the Fifth Amendment pertains to, are irrelevant in this situation. He wasn't even teaching his students by giving them accurate information about the situation they were in. The Fifth Amendment was not applicable in this situation.

All he had to do was tell them they were not compelled to answer the questions--they have a right to privacy. It's a privacy issue not a Fifth Amendment issue.

By bringing up the Fifth Amendment, he injected the criminal justice system, and law enforcement, into the motives of the school, and that was a mischaracterization of the school's motive and intent with the survey, and one that would unnecessarily engender mistrust.

He exercised his right of free speech, but no one ever said that free speech is free of all consequences, and his students can learn from that too.

ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 02:09 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
He exercised his right of free speech, but no one ever said that free speech is free of all consequences, and his students can learn from that too


they have certainly learned not to trust the school administrators/school board

that is quite clear from the statements the student reps have made
ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 02:15 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

All the teacher had to do was tell them they didn't have to answer the questions if they had concerns about them. They weren't being compelled to answer the questions, they were only being asked to voluntarily answer them, and just reminding the students of that would have been enough.


No it would not have been enough. Teachers stand up as authority figures and many children are obedience-taught. This was abusive in my view. Mr. Dryden was the sane one.
Their personal history if disclosed by students asking a teacher for help is one thing. Passing out questionaires about their personal history is an invasion by an authority figure.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 02:17 pm
@firefly,
Then the school board needs some lessons of propriety.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 02:20 pm
@firefly,
"But there is no massive outcry, from the community within that school district, about the survey itself, or the motives behind it."

This is a crying shame, if so.
On ehBeth's post, just after this one (I'm editing) she refers to some angry folks, so I hope you are wrong about that.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 02:20 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

But there is no massive outcry, from the community within that school district, about the survey itself, or the motives behind it.


have you not read the other comments by students, parents and teachers? people seem pretty angry
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 02:24 pm
@firefly,
Good grief: it is appropriate that high school students learn that not all authority figures are walking saints in front of the room.
I wouldn't go to those non-Dryden approving folk for love nor money, were I in trouble.
Oh, by the way, I was little miss obedience when I was in high school, I know authority figure certitudes.
 

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