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I'm still seeing this as having students effectively saying/writing that they had committed crimes. It doesn't matter that apparently no one is going to hang them for that: the knowledge stays in a teacher's mind, a principal's mind, probably is discussed in teacher meetings, and the board sees the info. Johnny will be regarded more askance, categorized. This is additive to what I keep saying, the private lives of the students are not the teacher's business to survey, and they are using the power of the Teacher in the Room to extract information/have children "volunteer". Ugh, ugh, ugh.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

I'd call the survey incompetent, given the way it was implemented.

This is why the off-the-top of your head opinions fail to carry any weight with me.

A test that's a measurement instrument, and that's what it was, is not "incompetent" it's either valid and reliable or it isn't--that's what measurement testing is all about. And the "way it was implemented" is so vague, it's meaningless. Are you talking about the communication by the school administration? Are you talking about the instructions given to the students when the test sheets were handed out? Are you talking about the committee that selected this particular testing instrument?

Quote:

I'd call disciplining the teacher malicious

And since you make no reference to the actual official documents describing the teacher's behavior, and the reasons why it was considered by the Board to be unprofessional and objectionable, and where you find evidence of malice in the reprimand action, I have no reason to give your opinion any weight.

This is why I find statements of unsubstantiated opinions not an argument or a debate, not at all persuasive, and not particularly interesting. Others might find it engaging, I don't.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Oh, yawn.

I'd say it's incompetent to spend a bunch of money to administer an unreliable instrument.

And this instrument is unreliable on the face of it, because the survey is not anonymous. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that people lie on surveys when the survey is not anonymous.

And the reprimand appears malicious because other teachers offered similar warnings, but did not mention Fifth Amendment rights. So one teacher spoke ungracefully, and they cut him off at the knees.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

I generally like Firefly's posts, too. That's why it's disappointing to see her go all ad hominem "you're crazy so your argument is worthless." (Or, worse, "I don't want to address what you're saying so I'll just call you crazy and dismiss you.")

Quote:

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

Captain Renault

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@boomerang,

Quote:

I'd love to know what questions were on this survey beyond drugs and alcohol use.

I'd like to know if they surveyed the senior class. Those kids will be leaving the school very soon and I doubt the school would have had time to intervene in any meaningful way.

Boomer, you could have some of your questions answered, at least in part, by just looking at the available factual information, some of which you posted links to earlier in this thread. I thank you for those links because you helped me find more info that increased my understanding of this issue.

For instance, you linked to this letter, which was sent to the parents, and posted on the high school Web site. It states the specific name of the test, the type of test, who it will be given to, why it is being given, etc. In part, it's being given to satisfy a state requirement to monitor student progress on the SEL standards. Monitoring requires repeat testing at intervals, like yearly, so they needed a test instrument appropriate for that purpose, and one that could be used to chart and monitor individual progress as well as group progress.

It's not being given just to identify those particular students who are struggling with social/emotional issues, it's being given to monitor the progress, in social/emotional areas, of all the high school students, over time--it's intended to be repeated yearly, which is implied but not explicitly stated, so the progress of each individual student can be evaluated (which is why it can't be anonymous), as well as monitoring the progress of the high school students as a group. So, giving it to this year's seniors also allows comparing that group to the juniors, sophomores, etc.

Quote:

BHS Social-Emotional Survey

All BHS students will be taking a 34-question survey during their 3rd block class that evaluates their social-emotional perceptions. Please click here by April 17th if you do not want your student to take this assessment.

Why are we doing this? In addition to the Illinois Common Core Learning Standards, school districts are required to provide instruction and monitor student progress on the Illinois Social Emotional Learning (SEL) Standards (click here to view the standards).

Over the past several years, Student Services Staff have reviewed and researched a variety of tools intended to monitor student performance relative to the SEL standards.

What is this assessment? The Behavior Intervention Monitoring Assessment System (BIMAS) was chosen to be utilized to monitor student progress on the SEL standards.
The BIMAS is designed to be used for screening, progress monitoring, outcome
assessment, and program evaluation within the Response to Intervention (RTI)
framework.

How will the results be utilized? Batavia High School will use the BIMAS to monitor students’ progress in the areas of social and emotional development. Results of the BIMAS will be analyzed at a building level to assist staff in planning and implementation of social emotional supports to help all students grow to their fullest potential. It is a systematic process of detecting students who are struggling behaviorally and are at-risk for experiencing a range of negative short- and long-term outcomes. If your child is found to be at risk and is not currently receiving social-emotional supports within the school, a member of the building’s Student Services Team will notify a parent to discuss options for support.
http://bhs.bps101.net/bhs-social-emotional-survey

So what areas does the BIMAS cover? Well, here's the link to that test from the company Batavia contracted with
http://www.mhs.com/product.aspx?gr=edu&prod=bimas&id=resources
It's a 34 question test that yields measurement scales--
Behavioral Concern Scales, to identify risks (things like anger management, bullying, substance abuse, negative affects like anxiety and depression, and cognitive/attention problems like organization, planning, etc.---
and
Adaptive Scales, to identify areas of strength and improvement in Social Functioning (friendship maintenance, communication, etc.) and Academic Functioning--academic performance, attendance, ability to follow directions,etc.)

So most of what this test is measuring has nothing to do with substance use, which related to only a few questions out of the 34. So most of the questions on this test evaluated other areas of the students functioning.

Multi-Health Systems will not make public the actual test questions--out of concern that familiarity with the items will affect test validity/reliability--and that's fairly standard practice in the area of psychological testing--and the school can't make the actual test public because it's the commercial property of MHS, and they have proprietary rights over it.

But the students who took the test have seen the questions, so have the teachers who handed out the test sheets, and I haven't read any complaints about the specific questions or test items from those people.

I can understand why it took them a year to settle on the test they wanted to use for monitoring the yearly social/emotional progress of a large high school body (it has 1800+ students), over an extended period of time, that would allow the charting of individual students progress, as well as group progress, and would also allow for the identification of struggling students, and which would indicate whether they were meeting state standards for SEL. It's really a massive undertaking in terms of testing and monitoring--no wonder it cost over $8200.

So now it's also clear to me why this testing couldn't be anonymous--they wouldn't be able to chart an individual student's progress over the years, and they wouldn't be able to identify struggling individuals in need of support services without identifying info. It is possible that MHS uses coding rather than the names on their end, but they are obligated to maintain the privacy of these records regardless of how they do that.

The school offers the services of counselors, social workers, and psychologists, within the school. For actual ongoing treatment of mental health problems they likely refer the student and the parents to an outside source. Their aim is to identify the problem and address it, or intervene, in some way, but not to actually offer mental health or substance abuse treatment.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

It is a systematic process of detecting students who are struggling behaviorally and are at-risk for experiencing a range of negative short- and long-term outcomes.

because the old fashioned method for doing this, interacting with them and watching them most of the day 5 days a week, no longer works.....we are to assume.

this looks like laziness on top of stupidity on top of abuse.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

And this instrument is unreliable on the face of it, because the survey is not anonymous. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that people lie on surveys when the survey is not anonymous.

Another meaningless statement because the test developer has statistical results to support the reliability and validity of the BIMAS test, which is the one Batavia used--not that you've likely bothered to confuse yourself with any factual information about the reliability or validity of this particular test.

Test developers are every bit as smart as you are--they often build in "lie scales" or measures to indicate possible lying.

And, contrary to what you might believe, all people do not lie when tests are not anonymous.

Lots of employment screening, including that of large police departments, uses some type of group testing to evaluate social/emotional/personality functioning, and it's not done anonymously--and they rely on the results.

Quote:

And the reprimand appears malicious because other teachers offered similar warnings, but did not mention Fifth Amendment rights. So one teacher spoke ungracefully, and they cut him off at the knees.

Did you even bother to read the actual reprimand? There's no evidence of that in your comments.

3 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

because the old fashioned method for doing this, interacting with them and watching them most of the day 5 days a week, no longer works.....we are to assume.

It may not be enough. It also wouldn't satisfy compliance with Illinois state standards for evaluating SEL goals.

Batavia didn't dream this up on their own, there are state standards and goals for SEL--and the school has to show they are meeting them, or implementing procedures to achieve them, and then evaluate those programs to see if they are effective. The monitoring/testing provides some comprehensive objective measurement of those things.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

Lots of employment screening, including that of large police departments, uses some type of group testing to evaluate social/emotional/personality functioning, and it's not done anonymously--and they rely on the results.

often unnecessary invasion of the individual, but at least in these cases we are dealing with adults who can consent to the invasion, and who are doing it by choice because they dont have to be there. many of these kids and their parents are subject to criminal procedures if the kids dont go to school.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:

because the old fashioned method for doing this, interacting with them and watching them most of the day 5 days a week, no longer works.....we are to assume.

It may not be enough. It also wouldn't satisfy compliance with Illinois state standards for evaluating SEL goals.

the state mandating this abuse would be so much worse than idiot agents of the state carrying out the abuse as lone wolves.

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@hawkeye10,

Participation in the testing at Batavia was optional--parents could have opted out, the students could have opted out. There were no penalties for opting out.

You leave out the possibility that both parents and students could see the benefits of this testing, both the benefits to the students from the testing results, and the benefit to the district of complying with the state SEL standards, and they voluntarily agreed to participate.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

And, contrary to what you might believe, all people do not lie when tests are not anonymous.

I certainly did not state that all people lie on non-anonymous surveys. I stated that non-anonymous surveys are known to be skewed by privacy concerns.

But don't confuse yourself with what I actually said; what you want me to have said will certainly suffice for your purposes.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

not that you've likely bothered to confuse yourself with any factual information about the reliability or validity of this particular test.

Test developers are every bit as smart as you are--they often build in "lie scales" or measures to indicate possible lying.

Given some of the tests I've seen, I'm also well aware that some test developers are not smarter than me, or even competent.

Example: the Florida science benchmark exam that had multiple correct answers on a number of questions, but only counted one of the answers as the correct answer. (Technically correct answers that a "normal fifth grade student" probably wouldn't have been exposed to were counted incorrect. Never mind the talented/gifted kids who might understand the multiple correct answers.)

Example: My third grader's math worksheets which routinely have confusing or misleading instructions, or incorrect answer keys, or show that the person who designed the curriculum doesn't understand the underlying concepts. (This is a curriculum which was purchased by the school, mind you, and taught in class. The unit on decimals was particularly horrific.)

I understand that you reflexively take the side of authority, but really you should a) tone down the snarkiness and b) try not to make an ass out of yourself by automatically assuming that because someone sells something that it's necessarily a good product.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Nothing you're saying relates to the specific reliability or validity of the BIAMS test that Batavia used.

Quote:

try not to make an ass out of yourself by automatically assuming that because someone sells something that it's necessarily a good product. ..

I'm not automatically assuming anything. I actually looked into the statistical data that supports the validity and reliability of the BIAMS test. You're the one making an ass of yourself with totally unsubstantiated opinions.

Quote:

but really you should a) tone down the snarkiness ...

Practice what you preach.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Nothing you're saying relates to the specific reliability or validity of the BIAMS test that Batavia used.

I'm guessing that Batavia is the one that provides the data on how reliable their own test is?

You're trying to move the goalposts, though. The students and parents (and teachers) should not have to provide data showing the test is invalid. The school district should have to provide justification for collecting this kind of data.

Regardless of how pure the intentions of the school district are, the students and the teachers still have good reason to be suspicious of this survey, and how the data will be used.

"Hey, just trust us! We have your best interests at heart!" is not a particularly compelling argument. Do you have a different one?

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Participation in the testing at Batavia was optional--parents could have opted out, the students could have opted out. There were no penalties for opting out.

You leave out the possibility that both parents and students could see the benefits of this testing, both the benefits to the students from the testing results, and the benefit to the district of complying with the state SEL standards, and they voluntarily agreed to participate.

please explain how this was different from the exec who goes up to his intern out of the blue saying " please take your panties off and then lay back and spread your legs so that I can check out your pussy to make sure it is fine". the intern can always say "no" and then wait to see what the punishment for refusing authority is....right?

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

I'm guessing that Batavia is the one that provides the data on how reliable their own test is?

Your ignorance of factual information regarding this entire topic is truly stunning. And it's made all the more stunning because I've posted links to the factual information, or posted the actual information, throughout this thread.

No, it's not "Batavia's test", dummy. The BIAMS test was purchased for use and data analysis from Multi-Health Systems Inc.--the developers of the test, who are experts in the field of test development and construction, do the standardization, and reliability/validity statistical analysis, of the test instrument prior to it's being marketed--just as is done for all other psychological tests of this nature--and that reliability/validity info was available to the school administrators. It's also available to anyone who wants to hunt it up. Do your homework, and you'll be better informed. This same test has been used, and is being used, in far more places than just Batavia High School.

Quote:

The school district should have to provide justification for collecting this kind of data.

The district did provide that justification. The Superintendent of Schools told them which test would be used, how the data would be used, and for what purposes, and why they needed to collect it. That was all in his letter that I posted. He provided quite adequate justification--and I addressed that in an earlier post--and it's clear, because it's part of a long-term monitoring process, why it couldn't be anonymous.

Quote:

Regardless of how pure the intentions of the school district are, the students and the teachers still have good reason to be suspicious of this survey, and how the data will be used

Do they have a rational reason to believe this man is lying? Has this school system misused any information about students in the past? Do they currently misuse any information they currently have? Why do the students or teachers have good reason to be suspicious of how the data will be used?

They have a right to ask more questions about the testing, and they have a right to get answers to those questions--and that has already happened, and it will continue to take place. But I haven't seen any indication that the Batavia school system plans to discontinue this testing program, or that the parents or students want them to do that, since this was only the first year of it's implementation, and it's a long-range SEL monitoring process. Now that some of the questions have been emphatically answered in the negative--like whether students would suffer any disciplinary actions, or legal problems, as a result of their answers--I think the tempest in the teapot will blow over.

And the fact that the actual reasons for disciplining that teacher, with a description of what he actually said to students, can now be seen online, in official documents, for all to read, will help many to realize just how inappropriate and unprofessional his behavior was. And it's really the situation with the teacher that generated most of the controversy.

4 Replies

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Do they have a rational reason to believe this man is lying?

Do they have a rational reason to trust the system?

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

dummy.

Ah. Now comes the abuse after the narcissistic ego is pricked. How pitifully predictable.

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@firefly,

I'm guessing that Multi-Health Systems Inc. is the one that provides the data on how reliable their own test is?

Alternately, I'm guessing that Batavia simply regurgitates the vendor's data on how reliable the test is?

Let me tell you how much I value stuff that's regurgitated....

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