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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Your disagreement is really with them, not with me. I read what they actually sent to the teacher, and I think they made their case against him.

Of course, you are correct. My disagreement is with the school board but they're not here and you've done a good job representing their position. Please accept that as the compliment it is intended to be.

In the end, I think the issue is the interpretation of what was said. You've agreed that it was ok to inform the students that the test was optional so we all agree there. If you think the teacher made derogatory comments about the school board and misrepresented the intent of the test, then that is the issue. If you think as I do that he engaged in some hyperbolic speech but was essentially on target with his concerns then it is hard to see the reasons for the reprimand. In a day when medical information about celebrities, credit card numbers and US diplomatic memos all routinely leak and government policies on information privacy change with the political winds I think it is naive to believe that any confession you make will not ever circle back to you. (Thirty years from now, people will be using these records in the Presidential race to smear each other.) In this case, we already know that parents can get the information just by asking. To warn students that no information is really confidential regardless of the statements of the school board is not a slam of the school board but just a reminder of a lesson of modern life.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

You and the mouse in your pocket may have to assume that, but I certainly do not have to do so.

Please do not attempt a forced partnership with me.

you are right, as I do not know how well you understand the shortcuts in rights which are taken for the sake of expediency.

but dont worry as I only walk with people who happen to be going in my direction, without regard to who they are.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
Student records are not currently available under FOIA,

So your original comment, suggesting that they are, was incorrect.

You enjoy splitting hairs, so you should enjoy this:

My original statement was not incorrect. I stated that the school is likely covered under FOIA, and, indeed, some records from public schools are covered under FOIA.

The school system cannot absolutely guarantee that the data from that survey will not be put into, or someday become, publicly-available information.

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@engineer,

what the board is pissed about is that his saying "I dont think you should pass along this information to the bosses because..." got in the way of what they wanted a hell of a lot more than teachers who said "you dont have to do this".

the bosses themselves admit that this teacher never said that they would miss use the information, they claimed that he "inferred" it, simply by putting "you dont have to do this" along with pointing out that" it is the bosses who are doing the asking here"

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

The school system cannot absolutely guarantee that the data from that survey will not be put into, or someday become, publicly-available information.

Especially since their statement does not indicate at all that they consulted any expert on privacy.

The Schoolboard, in its statement on disciplining Dryden, wrote:

In this case, district teachers, social workers, guidance counselors, psychologists and others worked together for over a year to select a data-gathering instrument that could be used to determine what social or emotional issues our high school students are experiencing, and whether individual students could benefit from new or increased supportive intervention by our staff.

Notice: Every stakeholder listed the statement has an interest in getting the data. None had a stake, nor any documented competence, in safeguarding the confidentiality of the data. It is easy to inadvertently construct surveys that can be exploited by sneaky statisticians, so the absence of any involvement from privacy experts is troubling.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

An I prefer the children lying to being pressure to answer the survey when and if they do refused...

I haven't read anywhere that the parents or children in Batavia were pressured, or felt pressured, to participate in this survey.
The public notice about the survey, giving parents the option of opting their child out, was not pressuring at all.
Parents and students who did opt out suffered no consequences as a result of that choice.

We apparently have differing values. I prefer children to not answer a question on a school survey than to lie with their answer. I prefer not encouraging a child to lie in such a situation, but simply to not respond.
Lying contributes to actively invaliding the data being collected for the entire group. Not responding won't do that.

Quote:

The teacher was the one looking after the children best interests and not the school board in this case.

How was the School Board not looking after the children's best interests? They were doing this survey to show compliance with, and effectiveness of, SEL state requirements--requirements that are in place to benefit the children of the district.
By helping to invalidate the data collected in this survey, by encouraging lying, the teacher was undermining a survey project that was for the benefit of the children.

If he had a problem with it, he should have addressed his concerns with the administration. His behavior with his students was unprofessional and inappropriate. He deserved the reprimand.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/144746964/Notice-to-Remedy

2 Replies

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

If he had a problem with it, he should have addressed his concerns with the administration. His behavior with his students was unprofessional and inappropriate. He deserved the reprimand.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/144746964/Notice-to-Remedy

According to Dryden, he would have adressed his concerns with the administration if the administration had left him any time to do so. Instead, the administration left teachers in the dark about the content and setup of the survey.

Quote:

Dryden previously admitted it was “dumb luck” he was able to review the questionnaires before passing them out, and that he would have consulted administrators if given more time.

Source

Someone certainly acted unprofessional here, but it wasn't Dryden.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

Earlier in the same post, Firefly wrote:

I haven't read anywhere that the parents or children in Batavia were pressured, or felt pressured, to participate in this survey.

There's a good reason for that: The administration snuck the survey past the parents, leaving them in the dark, too.

Quote:

At least some parents - some of which signed the petition to support Dryden, which attracted more than 4,000 signatures - stood by their previous assertion that Dryden was right to remind the students of their Constitutional rights.

“I was not made aware a survey was going to be issued to my son, and basically was not given any opportunity to protect his privacy rights,” said one mom, who also works at Batavia High School.

Same source

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

Likewise, when every student but you fills out a survey about psychological problems and drug use, this may well draw the school's attention onto you.

But some students didn't fill it out or participate. They weren't ostrasized. There was no big deal about it.

Teaching a child how to handle that sort of situation, where everyone is doing something you don't want to participate in, like answering survey questions, is better than lying so you can seem like "one of the group".

I remember my mother saying to me, "And if everyone jumps off the roof, are you going to do that too?"

I was taught to think for myself. I'm still doing that.

3 Replies

@firefly,

the bosses made a big deal about the failure to conform to their wishes by going after the teacher who they blame for causing the problem. Drunk

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

The school system cannot absolutely guarantee that the data from that survey will not be put into, or someday become, publicly-available information.

And the IRS cannot absolutely guarantee that your personal info, and tax returns, might not be made public if someone hacks into their data.

There are no absolute guarantees about anything.

You assess your risks your way, and I'll use my own criteria to assess mine.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

But some students didn't fill it out or participate. They weren't ostrasized. There was no big deal about it.

Maybe they weren't ostracised, but that doesn't mean the administration isn't going to "help" them in the future because their non-answer looks like evidence of a risk to them. And of course the administration won't consider it a big deal when it does. What could be more innocuous than precautions against a risk? Right?

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supression of free speech has reached a new level when we are punished only for what someone has decided that we inferred...sometimes those who read between the lines see only what they want to see, sometimes what is allegedly seen between the lines is nothing but an excuss to get people that the bosses want to get.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

Dryden previously admitted it was “dumb luck” he was able to review the questionnaires before passing them out, and that he would have consulted administrators if given more time

And no other teachers had this problem? Did any of them hand out similar legal advice to students? Or encourage their students to lie?

He was entitled to his questions about the survey, the problem was the way he handled it with his students.

He got the questionnaires before 1st period. The survey was given during 3rd period. He had time to try to contact an administrator if he was really concerned.
If he was that concerned, and he couldn't contact anyone, he shouldn't have administered the survey.

2 Replies

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

This is the letter that Dryden received from the school district regarding his behavior, why he was being reprimanded, and what they now expect of him.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/144746964/Notice-to-Remedy

Your own source undermines your position on one important point: Nothing in this letter indicates that the administration had given students any chance to opt out. "[A] Social-Emotional Survey was given to all Batavia High School Students whose parents had not opted them out of taking the survey." Notice: all students whose parents had not opted them out. The administration's own language indicates that it hadn't given the students themselves any choice in the matter. So much for the students "thinking for themselves" and "hav[ing] the right not to answer such questions".

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@firefly,

he got it 10 minutes before his first class, there was virtually no time to do anything unless he neglected his teaching duties. the bosses on the other hand could have come to the teachers with information at anytime during the year that this thing was put together.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
Dryden previously admitted it was “dumb luck” he was able to review the questionnaires before passing them out, and that he would have consulted administrators if given more time

And no other teachers had this problem? Did any of them hand out similar legal advice to students? Or encourage their students to lie?

Apparently they didn't, and it's a damn shame.

Also, with respect, you rhetoric about "legal advice" is stale going on rancid. The Bill of Rights is common knowledge among educated Americans, and invoking it is a normal part of everyday discourse. To interpret this as legal advice is grandstanding on the administration's part.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

I guess you have never seen just one of the defectives pulled from the herd and punished as an example for the rest.....

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Quote:

The administration snuck the survey past the parents, leaving them in the dark, too.

Oh please, this wasn't a secret project. The parents were not left in the dark.

This notice was e-mailed to all parents, and was also posted on the H.S. Web site.

It identifies the specific survey, the BIMAS, so parents were able to get more information about it, and what it covered, just as I did.

The only thing that was not made clearly explicit was the fact it was not being given anonymously. But it's evident, from the statement, "It is a systematic process of detecting students who are struggling behaviorally and are at-risk for experiencing a range of negative short- and long-term outcomes. If your child is found to be at .risk and is not currently receiving social-emotional supports within the school, a member of the building’s Student Services Team will notify a parent to discuss options for support, " that the identity of the child completing the survey would be known, otherwise they couldn't identify a high risk child and contact the parent.
I've already said they erred in not making the lack of anonymity more explicit, but that seems like poor communication rather than any deliberate attempt to deceive. If they were trying to be deceptive about that, they did a bad job, because they made it clear that children would be identifiable. They just should have been explicit on that point.

Quote:

BHS Social-Emotional Survey

All BHS students will be taking a 34-question survey during their 3rd block class that
evaluates their social-emotional perceptions. Please click here by April 17th if you do not want your student to take this assessment.

Why are we doing this? In addition to the Illinois Common Core Learning Standards, school districts are required to provide instruction and monitor student progress on the Illinois Social Emotional Learning (SEL) Standards (click here to view the standards).

Over the past several years, Student Services Staff have reviewed and researched a variety of tools intended to monitor student performance relative to the SEL standards.

What is this assessment? The Behavior Intervention Monitoring Assessment System
(BIMAS) was chosen to be utilized to monitor student progress on the SEL standards.
The BIMAS is designed to be used for screening, progress monitoring, outcome
assessment, and program evaluation within the Response to Intervention (RTI)
framework.

How will the results be utilized? Batavia High School will use the BIMAS to monitor students’ progress in the areas of social and emotional development. Results of the BIMAS will be analyzed at a building level to assist staff in planning and implementation of social emotional supports to help all students grow to their fullest potential. It is a systematic process of detecting students who are struggling behaviorally and are at-risk for experiencing a range of negative short- and long-term outcomes. If your child is found to be at .risk and is not currently receiving social-emotional supports within the school, a member of the building’s Student Services Team will notify a parent to discuss options for support

http://bhs.bps101.net/bhs-social-emotional-survey

The above is not my idea of being kept in the dark, or sneaking something past parents.

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@firefly,

please hightlight the part were parents were warned that the bosses were going to ask the kids to self identify as criminals.

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