15
   

We're from the government and we're here to help....

 
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 10:26 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
If you're a criminal suspect under investigation, that's good advice from a lawyer.

Are you suggesting that whenever the law touches on a subject, teachers must stop talking about it and hand the subject over to a lawyer?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 10:29 am
@firefly,
so long as we are clear that your posts about the results after scoring are pointless in the context of this discussion...
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  6  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 10:33 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
And, finally, he went beyond all of that and told them he wouldn't answer the questions honestly. That's a terrific role model, as a teacher--he encourages dishonesty.

Actually, you do have a legal right to lie to people when they ask you questions to which they're not entitled to an answer from you. (For example, consider questions about pregnancy in a job interview.) In the real world, honesty can hurt more than it helps. I wish my high-school teachers had alerted me to this fact. If they had, I would indeed think of them as better role models today.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 10:34 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
I know that Boomerang is speaking from ample previous experience with the school system's "experts" on psychological problems and how to deal with them. She may not know about this particular test, but she did have lots of encounters with those people and knows how they tick.

I agree with you about that.

That's why I'm a little puzzled about why she thought this sort of assessment would be more specific regarding a particular pupil. It was only intended to raise a red flag if there was a significant area of concern, and significant risk factor, relating to SEL, that the school might have previously missed with a particular student.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  6  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 10:35 am
Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
As the parent of a 12 year old boy I can tell you that last week he would have scored "high risk" in at least one of those categories and this week he wouldn't



How do you know that?


Thomas spoke for me very well.

I don't trust the schools one bit when it comes to the psychological care of students. Not one bit. I'll even go further -- I think the school system is capable of doing great damage to the psychological health of children based on their bubble sheets and 5 minutes of observation.

I know because I spend many more hours over many more years with him than any teacher ever will.

Last week I knew because Mo told me "I'm worried I'm going to lose it and hit that kid and then I'll get kicked out of school and I really like this school". I know because all of that anger from school was spilling out into his life outside of school. I know because Mo and I met with the school and then later that week I kept him home for a day and met with the school again because I felt sure that Mo was going to lose it and hit that kid.

This week, things have calmed down but the staff is on high alert.

If Mo had taken that survey last week, when he was feeling furious and unheard and defenseless he'd have surely shown himself as "high risk" -- high risk for violence and depression and anxiety, which, I imagine, are some of the things this survey tried to measure.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  7  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 10:40 am
@firefly,
Quote:
He was generating the concern over what the school might do with the info, and suggesting the survey results might be used for other than the intended purpose that had been given to the parents and the students in the school's public statement.


Really?

NCLB was touted as a way to help locate and help struggling schools, instead those schools are being denied funds or being shut down.

What those tests were intended to be used for and what they're actually being used for couldn't be more different.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 10:53 am
it has not escaped my notice that the state got us conditioned to allow our kids to be asked about their illegal activities on the rationale of SAFETY!, using anonymous surveys to it says track trends in the population, then did the bait and switch making them screens by putting names to the answers. we are supposed to think it is no big deal and that we are getting in the way of SAFETY! if we object.

we are sheep being led to slaughter.



the correct response would be a law that the state can no longer use mass information gathering attempts to try to get our kids to self identify as criminals, for any purpose, allegedy anonymous or not. over reach by the state must be punished to discourage the practicen
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:11 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Are you suggesting that whenever the law touches on a subject, teachers must stop talking about it and hand the subject over to a lawyer?

No, there is nothing wrong with discussions of the Constitution and what the 5th Amendment says, what it pertains to, etc.

He was giving legal advice about how his students should behave in reponse to a questionnaire given by the school district that employs him.

And he went beyond that.
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130531/news/705319864/

This is the letter that Dryden received from the school district regarding his behavior, why he was being reprimanded, and what they now expect of him.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/144746964/Notice-to-Remedy

People are free to judge whether they agree with the above, or not. I think they justified the reprimand in that communication to Dryden.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:11 am
@boomerang,
Firefly to start calling Boomerang and Engineer paranoid and crazy in 3... 2... 1...
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:13 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Actually, you do have a legal right to lie to people when they ask you questions to which they're not entitled to an answer from you.

You also have the right not to answer such questions. Personally, I prefer that to lying, or encouraging children to lie.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:17 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
Not to mention that the school is likely covered under the Freedom of Information Act.

Can your children's private school records be obtained under the Freedom of Information Act?

Public schools are subject to FOIA. Student records are not currently available under FOIA, but laws do change.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:22 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
Actually, you do have a legal right to lie to people when they ask you questions to which they're not entitled to an answer from you.

You also have the right not to answer such questions. Personally, I prefer that to lying, or encouraging children to lie.

So a woman who is pregnant and needs a job should just stand on principle and not answer if she's asked that question? And then not get the job?

How nice for you not to have to face such decisions, there in your ivory tower.





I have taught my kids about why it's important to be honest with me at all times. I have taught my kids that in some circumstances it is OK to lie, or to be disobedient. Because the world is not a perfect place, and they will be faced with situations where honesty is not the best policy.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:23 am
@DrewDad,
we have to assume that these screens get passed to the school cop for an unofficial look see so that he can confirm who should be on his radar for placement into the criminal "justice" system....so we have massive privacy issues long before the FOIA comes into play.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:23 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the correct response would be a law that the state can no longer use mass information gathering attempts to try to get our kids to self identify as criminals, for any purpose, allegedy anonymous or not. over reach by the state must be punished to discourage the practicen



Not to mention that given how many ways there is to match a paper to a person you are taking their words that it is an anonymous survey in any case.

What happen there could be useful teaching moment for the children in the wisdom of not just going along with anyone demand for private information of any type.

0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:24 am
@hawkeye10,
You and the mouse in your pocket may have to assume that, but I certainly do not have to do so.

Please do not attempt a forced partnership with me.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:28 am
@firefly,
Quote:
You also have the right not to answer such questions. Personally, I prefer that to lying, or encouraging children to lie.


An I prefer the children lying to being pressure to answer the survey when and if they do refused as the system was willing to punished a teacher for pointing out the children rights so what would they do to the children that did not go openly along with the program?

The teacher was the one looking after the children best interests and not the school board in this case.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:29 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Student records are not currently available under FOIA,

So your original comment, suggesting that they are, was incorrect.

Look, if my child was a student at Batavia High School, and took this questionnaire, and completed it honestly, I wouldn't be concerned about any legal "self-incrimination" consequences to my child based on his responses, regardless of what those responses were. I don't see them in this particular situation.

On the other hand, I'd be a lot more worried about the actual illegal activity my child was engaged in, if my child was doing something illegal.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:37 am
@firefly,
LOL I would be concern more for the children futures if they would at some point apply for a government job that call for a detail background check by homeland security then if they had ever smoke some weeds or not.

Somehow with all the powers that been granted by the Congress in the name of security I do not see any school board not rolling over to provide the requested information on a former student.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:39 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Look, if my child was a student at Batavia High School, and took this questionnaire, and completed it honestly, I wouldn't be concerned about any legal "self-incrimination" consequences to my child based on his responses, regardless of what those responses were. I don't see them in this particular situation.

On the other hand, I'd be a lot more worried about the actual illegal activity my child was engaged in, if my child was doing something illegal.

Then you're a bad parent.

A good parent is concerned about both issues.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 11:41 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
You also have the right not to answer such questions. Personally, I prefer that to lying, or encouraging children to lie.

That's a nice move if you can make it work. But when, for example, a prospective employer asks you if you're pregnant and you say "no comment", that won't work: The interviewer will simply infer the correct answer from your choice to withhold it, and hire somebody else.

Likewise, when every student but you fills out a survey about psychological problems and drug use, this may well draw the school's attention onto you. Likewise if you answer every survey question except the one that says "have you smoked pot at any time in the past semester?" It's your right to do it, but even if the school doesn't intend to proceed this way when it designs the survey, it can still interpret your silence as evidence of a risk, later. That's how honesty on the student's part can have pernicious unintended consequences, and that's why it's important that students learn when to lie.

Knowing when to lie is an important aspect of growing up. I personally prefer it that grown-ups be realistic about lying, rather than wax moralistically about staying honest at all times.

PS: Having thought about the issue some more, I changed my mind and am now siding, on balance, with Mr. Dryden and against the school board.
 

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