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Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2014 12:40 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Is there any reason one should stop arguing, if one believes one is right? I still think there's a solid scientific case for Jesus' historical existence. Thomas thinks not. As long as we behave, who says we should stop our discussion?

I'm not here to annoy anyone, Lustig, but I don't take **** from anyone either. No matter how many they are. I realise many of my ideas look odd to most here. Some of you guys are also of the contrarian type and sometimes it leads to a periods of "tough talk" and at other times it goes better. If that annoys you, the iggy button is just one click away.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2014 12:45 pm
The so-called gospels get a great many facts wrong. We know of every lustrum (not census) which Caesar Augustus ordered, because it is literally carved in stone, and in several locations. Quite apart from that, it is absurd to think that any emperor gave a rat's ass about how many Jews there were. Jews only got counted if they happened to be Roman citizens. The populations of those who were not Roman citizens was the affair of the provincial or sub-provincial governors.

The claim about a "star" stopping over Bethlehem is not only an astronomical absurdity, there is no record of any extraordinary celestial event in the years which may be alleged as the year of the birth of the putative Jeebus. Placing his birth in Bethlehem was a painfully obvious attempt to link him to King David, as are the two genealogies, which contradict one another.

Pilate was a prefect, not a proconsul. Proconsul was a term casually used for the governors of senatorial provinces, but not an official title. Pilate was the sub-provincial governor of Iudaea From Livius-dot-org (the best go-to site for ancient history):

Quote:
Praefectus civitatium. This prefect was appointed by the governor of a province to rule a part of it. The most famous example is the praefectus Judaea between 26 and 36: Pontius Pilate.


. . . and . . .

Quote:
The emperor Hadrian briefly experimented with proconsular government of Italy, but his successor Antoninus Pius reversed this policy. However, Marcus Aurelius reinstated it.


That only applied to Italy, and Hadrian was emperor from 117 to 138 CE.

Ciaphas brow-beating Pilate is another absurdity. The high priest was appointed by the Prefect from a short list sent over by the temple. Ciaphas had not authority over or even leverage with the Prefect.

The claim of an earthquake and an eclipse of the sun at the time of the death of the putative messiah is not confirmed by any other, non-christian evidence. To suggest that an earthquake occurred and no one else noticed or recorded the event is another absurdity.

The number of absurdities and outright falsehoods in the gospels is impressive. What is not impressive, is any body of factual claims which can be confirmed from non-christian sources.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2014 12:51 pm
By the way, August did call a census of all the population of the empire . . . in 8 CE. This was carried out by provincial governors, and the claim that people were rushing around the empire to go to their "homes" is another absurdity. If one alleges that the putative Jeebus was born in 8 CE, then his execution 33 years later would have taken place in 41 CE--five years after the end of Pilate's term of office which ended in 36 CE.

The so-called gospels have no basis for a claim of accuracy.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2014 12:52 pm
So anyway...the answer to the question: Did Jesus actually exist?...seems to be something along the lines of...

I really do not know; I suspect neither does anyone else discussing the question here; I can think of no way to every determine if a single individual existed who is the Jesus of the Bible...or if the Jesus of the Bible is an amalgam of several people who were pushing a modified philosophical stance.

Right?
carloslebaron
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2014 07:58 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
So anyway...the answer to the question: Did Jesus actually exist?...seems to be something along the lines of...

I really do not know; I suspect neither does anyone else discussing the question here; I can think of no way to every determine if a single individual existed who is the Jesus of the Bible...or if the Jesus of the Bible is an amalgam of several people who were pushing a modified philosophical stance.

Right?


Of course Jesus existed... regardless of all those stupid hypothesis (similar to the one written right above) trying to deny his existence.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2014 09:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Right?

Works for me.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 03:04 am
@carloslebaron,
carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:
So anyway...the answer to the question: Did Jesus actually exist?...seems to be something along the lines of...

I really do not know; I suspect neither does anyone else discussing the question here; I can think of no way to every determine if a single individual existed who is the Jesus of the Bible...or if the Jesus of the Bible is an amalgam of several people who were pushing a modified philosophical stance.

Right?


Of course Jesus existed... regardless of all those stupid hypothesis (similar to the one written right above) trying to deny his existence.


So have you seen any good movies lately, Carlos?
Olivier5
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 05:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Conclusion 1: there is an array of documentary evidence pointing to the existence of the dude.

Conclusion 2: there has been, since the 1970s at least, a strong scientific consensus that Jesus existed. That could of course change tomorrow. but don't hold your breath.

Conclusion 3: Many people on A2K haven't updated their software since the 1970s.

That's what I know. As for what YOU and others here know or can now... I share your pessimism.
0 Replies
 
timur
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 06:20 am
Olivier wrote:
Conclusion 3: Many people on A2K haven't updated their software since the 1970s.


You are a cosmic (and a comic) star when it comes to making up crap.

What kind of software did you use to use in the 1970s?

At that time, I wasn't even aware that such debate existed.

Now, some highly illogical clown like yourself just shows up here and spit made up stuff.

It's about time you change your routine, OSs have changed a lot lately.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 06:57 am
@timur,
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xFrGuyw1V8s
timur
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 07:00 am
@Olivier5,
No need to tell me about you..
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 08:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
So have you seen any good movies lately, Carlos?


I can answer it this way.

Here, in this discussion, watching dudes brainwashing themselves with the idea that Jesus didn't exist is greater than the best movie winner of an Oscar.

The fiction in their messages is extraordinary.
Their drama is excellent, apparently they went to Oberlin, Ohio.
No words can praise the innovative script and dialogues talking pure crap.

I do have a good time watching this "movie" here, which is more sophisticated than the 3D in movie theaters. Here, you can participate and have contact with the actors.

But sorry, I won't share my popcorn and soda with you, because watching the stupid arguments invented by all of you denying the existence of Jesus in this movie, you really don't deserve them... Lol
0 Replies
 
timur
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 09:48 am
Jesus believers and Holocaust deniers, creepy clowns..
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 10:16 am
Musical interlude...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pkSx9Hckxis
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2014 05:56 am
Found this analysis of "denialism" on another thread. I think it's topical here, eg it is true that the more facts you present, the more in denial they get.


Quote:
Rather, the Oxford defines a denialist as “a person who refuses to admit the truth of a concept or proposition that is supported by the majority of scientific or historical evidence,” which represents a whole different level of cognitive bias or rationalization. Think of it as bias on steroids. [...]

The first two things that became clear during our discussions of denialism are particularly disturbing to me as a scientist and philosopher. First, as a scientist: it’s just not about the facts, indeed — as Brendan showed data in hand during his presentation — insisting on facts may have counterproductive effects, leading the denialist to double down on his belief.

This, of course, should not be taken to mean that the facts don’t matter. If I want to push the idea that climate change is real, or that evolution is a valid scientific theory, or that the Armenian genocide was indeed a genocide, I better get my facts as straight as possible. It’s a pure and simple question of intellectual integrity. But if I think that simply explaining the facts to the other side is going to change their mind, then I’m in for a rude awakening.

That was a lesson I learned many years ago while debating creationists. A debate is a fun event, during which your testosterone is pumped into your veins, which can rally your troops (helping, say, with a fund raising), and which may even grab the attention of fence sitters and others who knew little about the subject matter. What it certainly won’t do is to convince your opponent or any of his committed supporters. Indeed, my best moments as a debater (against Institute for Creation Research’s Duane Gish, or Discovery Institute’s Jonathan Wells) came when I was able to show the audience that these people were consciously lying to them. Nobody likes to be treated as a fool, not even a creationist.

As a philosopher, I found to be somewhat more disturbing the idea that denialism isn’t even about critical thinking. Teaching about logical fallacies isn’t going to do any better than teaching about scientific facts. Indeed, the evidence from the literature is overwhelming that denialists have learned to use the vocabulary of critical thinking against their opponents. To begin with, of course, they think of themselves as “skeptics,” thus attempting to appropriate a word with a venerable philosophical pedigree and which is supposed to indicate a cautiously rational approach to a given problem. As David Hume put it, a wise person (i.e., a proper skeptic) will proportion her beliefs to the evidence. But there is nothing of the Humean attitude in people who are “skeptical” of evolution, climate change, vaccines, and so forth. [denialists are called hyper-critics" or "hyper skeptics" -- they doubt beyond reasonable doubt]

Denialists have even begun to appropriate the technical language of informal logic: when told that a majority of climate scientists agree that the planet is warming up, they are all too happy to yell “argument from authority!” When they are told that they should distrust statements coming from the oil industry and from “think tanks” in their pockets they retort “genetic fallacy!” And so on.


http://scientiasalon.wordpress.com/2014/10/28/the-varieties-of-denialism/


edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2014 06:17 am
But, you must present evidence for that to work out for you.
timur
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2014 06:20 am
@Olivier5,
You are showing again the wicked facet of your personality.

You twist the very purpose this article was written for: showing that you have to have your facts straight.

Conflating concepts like global warming, Holocaust and the existence of Jesus will not lead you anywhere.

You are the typical hypocrite, wanting it both ways.

(Le beurre et l'argent du beurre!)
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2014 06:58 am
@edgarblythe,
I have presented many facts, and you wouldn't touch them with a 10 ft pole... Smile Now I know why.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2014 07:02 am
@timur,
It's not the concept that is similar, it is the debating techniques and mental entrapment of Jesus deniers which has the very same characteristics as Other forms of denial.

timur
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2014 07:45 am
@Olivier5,
In are in an obvious denial.
 

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