Did Jesus Actually Exist?

@Thomas,

Quote:

Needless to say, I approve of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness being human rights, but the reasoning here rests on two urban legends: (1) that the world has a creator ("nature and nature's god"), and (2) that this creator is what endows humans with rights.

Human rights are not an urban legend (if they are, maybe we need more legends). One can trace positively who wrote the French Declaration of Human Rights and the US Bill of Rights and when. They were historically 'sold' or presented as god-given for some good reasons, including the Judeo-Christian origin of these rights, the theist beliefs of their 18th century proponents, and perhaps also the fact that they couldn't have been 'socialised' in any other way at the time.

1 Reply

@timur,

I did dismiss your nominations (scholars are not technically 'sources') AFTER I THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATED THEM, something that YOU failed to do. If you had check your info before posting it, you could have saved me some work, and saved yourself some embarrassment.

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@Olivier5,

You are lying, you did dismiss my list and just underlined the passages that were favorable to your thesis.

I'm not the least embarrassed by a wicked self declared expert.

Pretending that you do a better job locating sources is laughable..

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Well that's a relief, do you just like dressing up as Tom Cruise then?

Do not have the slightest idea of what you are talking about, Izzy.

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@timur,

LOL...

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Human rights are not an urban legend

You didn't pay attention. I didn't say human rights are a legend, I said that god is a legend, and that he bestows rights on humans is a legend.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:
Human rights are not an urban legend

You didn't pay attention. I didn't say human rights are a legend, I said that god is a legend, and that he bestows rights on humans is a legend.

And of that...you are certain?

Or is it possibly another guess?

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@Frank Apisa,

Sorry, John Travolta. What am I like?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You THINK we know that. But you've made mistakes before, right?

I thought your standard around these things is historians specialized on early Christianity. Bart Ehrman, whose book I linked to, is a historian and a professor of religious studies who specializes in early Christianity. Take it up with him. Here, I'll link to the book again for you.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Sorry, John Travolta. What am I like?

Still have no idea of what you are talking about, Iz.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

And of that...you are certain?

I'm claiming the existence of god is a legend. As Joe and I discussed in our exchange, some legends have a kernel of truth in them, some don't. While I happen to have an opinion on what kind of legend the one about god is (and you know what that opinion is), I can leave this point open for purposes of discussing the declaration of independence.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

So what Scientologists do you like dressing up as?

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
And of that...you are certain?

I'm claiming the existence of god is a legend. As Joe and I discussed in our exchange, some legends have a kernel of truth in them, some don't.

Uh huh!

Well...it seems to me that if I were to ask you, "does this particular legend have a 'kernel of truth' to it"...and your answer were anything other than, "I do not know, I can only guess"...I feel my question would apply again.

All you are doing is peeling back a layer; it is still an onion, so to speak.

Quote:

While I happen to have an opinion on what kind of legend the one about god is (and you know what that opinion is), I can leave this point open for purposes of discussing the declaration of independence.

Okay...and you certainly have that right, Thomas.

I just thought I would ask.

To my way of thinking, until we get the people who are guessing there is a GOD...and those guessing there are no gods...to see that all they are doing is blindly guessing on the question...

...we are stuck at an impasse.

If we all recognize that all we are doing is blindly guessing...and start acknowledging that at every opportunity...

...the impasse disappears.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

So what Scientologists do you like dressing up as?

When you tire of this game...whatever it actually is...lemme know.

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@Thomas,

Great, I'll try and dig up what he says. He incidentally wrote a book defending the historical Jesus, which you might wish to read yourself...

Still, the gospels try to point to sources. Named sources. And we have Paul as a clear source for part of the story. That's not typical of urban legends. The signature line of urban legends is: 'it happened to the friend of a friend'.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

All you are doing is peeling back a layer; it is still an onion, so to speak.

It happens to be the layer that's relevant to providing the example Oliver5 asked about. I've had the atheist-vs-agnostic argument dozens of times since we first met. I'm not interested in having it again.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Great, I'll try and dig up what he says. He incidentally wrote a book defending the historical Jesus, which you might wish to read yourself...

I have. I appreciate his overview of the primary sources, but ultimately disagree with his interpretation of the evidence. In particular, I disagree that the evangelists are trustworthy witnesses to anything.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

I said that god is a legend, and that he bestows rights on humans is a legend.

I agree that gods are legends, and that some of these have met with social success.

But that some god bestows rights onto folks his a philosophic idea that can be traced back to the Enlightenment thinkers, and before them, in a sort of embryonic form, to the Christian Humanists. Ideas are not the same stuff as legends.

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@Frank Apisa,

There's no need to get snotty. Is it this guy? Are you this guy? (Younger obviously)

http://cdnph.upi.com/collection/fp/upi/5376/9bb305f6c28b23f4d1afdccc4d56fd22/Famous-Scientologists_4_1.jpg

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

Got it.

http://markrathbun.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jim_at_gold1.jpg

0 Replies

Did Jesus Actually Exist?

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