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Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 11:40 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Timur tried and failed.

Setanta tried and failed.


You're the one who resorted to hysterical mud throwing and sneers. That's not the way someone who is winning an argument behaves. You're starting to sound a bit like Quehoniaomath.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 11:40 am
@Olivier5,
Characters? As in a morality play, as in a fairy tale? Please provide one contemporary source for the existence of your boy Jeebus. Just one--thank you.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 11:44 am
@Setanta,
I never used the Testimonium. You never commented on book 20 mentions James, brother of Jesus. What does Feldman think of it?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 11:45 am
@Setanta,
Why would I do that? Thank you.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 11:47 am
@izzythepush,
Sorry but there's a strong similarity, in the way they post fake lists of 'scientists' for instance... Same behavior, but on a less aggravating level and topic.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 11:53 am
@Olivier5,
Not at all, and it's outrageous that you linked the two. If you were winning the argument you wouldn't have had to sink to such depths.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 12:11 pm
@izzythepush,
Yours is a circular argument. There are factual, verifiable similarities between all the historical hyper-doubting debates, including:

1) shunned and scorned by academia.
2) supported only by amateurs with a very strong, polemic bias.
3) often argued from a position of ignorance ("we cannot know") even when historians are quite categorical about a certain core consensus.
4) excessive trust in and reliance on crappy fringe web sites with many many holes in them, without caring to check sources.
5) more generally, ANY source, even the crappiest one, is okay when it goes in their own direction, but no source that goes against it is ever credible enough.
6) changing the goalpost constantly: once you nail one foolish claim of theirs, they move to another, and another. You can never nail them to a precise thesis (see point 3 above: instilling doubt is enough.
7) when you manage to find one with a precise rival hypothesis (an explain action of how the hoax of Jesus or the holocaust was pulled out by some writers / conspirators, their theory is generally ridiculous, and in any case easily discarded by real specialists.
8) these rival theories and arguments against sources have all been debunked decades ago in academia, but keep being peddled nevertheless by doubters, with the occasional, new but equally ridiculous argument surfacing once in a blue moon.
One Eyed Mind
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 12:15 pm
@Olivier5,
The only Jesus I know,

is the Jesus that did magic tricks for a living;

he died by the Romans for doing magic tricks,

in a religiously intolerant era.
0 Replies
 
timur
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 12:16 pm
Olivier wrote:
Timur tried and failed.


Just because you assert that doesn't make it so.

You have not foundation to your claims as you have none for the existence of Jesus.

Dismissing reputable sources because they are inconvenient to your theories, doesn't make your case better.

Soon you'll start yelling..

Another link you should read and not twist: Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 12:26 pm
@Olivier5,
You are so full of it................

By the way as you are claiming that there is no question about a real person being behind all those religion myths why do you not tell us more about this real person,

Did he have brothers and sisters and did his family realty needed to move to the father former home town to be counted in a census that there seems no record for and in the middle of winter at that?

Did he in fact whipped the money changers out of the temple for some reason?

Was he gay or did he have a wife that was not included in the bible but in some other cult writing that did not made it into the bible?

As you seems to have some secret knowledge of this man that was not tied into the cult religion nonsense how about sharing them with us.

Oh, is your real name Dr. Who?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 12:37 pm
@timur,
First you give a link to a crappy site with a fake list of 'scholars', then you list 2 people who never doubted the historical Jesus. (See my analysis of Niels Peter Lemche and Thomas L. Thompson up thread)

You failed to mention one single modern qualified scientist doubting a historical Jesus.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 12:54 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Did he have brothers and sisters and did his family realty needed to move to the father former home town to be counted in a census that there seems no record for and in the middle of winter at that?

All the infancy stories are in doubt, especially the census story found in only one gospel. This said, we have a list of his brothers, which include James the Just who became the first bishop of Jerusalem. Paul met with the guy and he is attested in Josephus.

Quote:
Did he in fact whipped the money changers out of the temple for some reason?

Most probably he did. I can explain the arguments behind this claim if you are interested.

Quote:
Was he gay or did he have a wife that was not included in the bible but in some other cult writing that did not made it into the bible?

Pretty obvious that he was a Essene-type virgin, but there are textual indications (not easily discarded) that he was very found of a certain Mary Magdalene... who traveled with Jesus as one of his followers. She was present at Jesus' two most important moments: the crucifixion and the resurrection.[4] Within the four Gospels she is named at least 12 times,[5] more than most of the apostles. (wiki)
timur
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:15 pm
@Olivier5,
Well, your analysis distorts the real intentions of those historians.

If you keep denying any validity of the historians and scholars cited, no wonder you call mine crappy links.

But you didn't offer any evidence yet that Jesus existed.

Then, your stance is a crappy one.

It should be easy for you, as you know so many "credible and reputable" historians, to give us some evidence of Jesus existence...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:18 pm
@timur,
Wait. I did YOUR homework and checked the ACTUAL STANCE OF SCIENTISTS YOU MENTIONED. And none of them denies a historical Jesus. Let's be clear.

Gimme one scientist who doubts a historical Jesus. ONE. That should be easy. But it's not.
0 Replies
 
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:19 pm
@timur,
Jesus walked on water (magicians do that today).

Jesus turned wine into water (magicians do that today).

Jesus would "disappear" (magicians do that today).

Jesus was a carpenter. What does carpentry have access to? Glass. What is used to walk on water? Thin panels of glass.

I won't be surprised if carpentry gave Jesus access to other equipment to turn wine into water or "disappear".
timur
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:22 pm
@One Eyed Mind,
Yeah, Jesus is an E.T.

(My kingdom is not of this world).
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:25 pm
@timur,
Or Jesus was a normal man who worked in carpentry that learned a lot from working with shapes and numbers that he got fascinated with "magic", the illusion one, not the make-believe one.

There is a thin line between geniuses and magicians.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:25 pm
@timur,
You guys give me the exact same sinking feeling OEMind does: oh nooooo, not yet another loose lunatic arguing ON MY SIDE (atheism) and shooting me in the foot...
timur
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:36 pm
@Olivier5,
I do not consider myself being on your side.

Even if you are an atheist, I've very little in common with you.

I do not try to twist or distort words in order to make them suit my theories.

I see you on the hypocrite side..

To be precise, I don't know if a man named Jesus existed but, given the evidence available, I highly doubt of his existence.
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2014 01:38 pm
@Olivier5,
What I say is based on scientific fact.

Jesus was a magician like any other magician here today.
0 Replies
 
 

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