Did Jesus Actually Exist?

@edgarblythe,

Indeed, and none of the deniers have brought any single piece of evidence pointing to a fabrication...

Everyone's self-justificatory bullsh*t taken aside, there is an issue here that no one is addressing, and that is the definition of "Jesus."

If the question were whether or not there were some religious loony running around Palestine 2000 years ago named Yeshua who was haranguing the people about the kingdom of god, i'd say that was a no-brainer. For more than 600 years, from the end of the Babylonian captivity to the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine by the Romans in the first half of the second century, there was always at least one loony named Yeshua loose and belaboring the population with his mystic bullsh*t.

But as soon as you say "Jesus," the question is freighted with all manner of ridiculous baggage. At the most extreme there is the issue of raising Lazarus from the dead (anyone care to prove that there really was a Lazarus who died and was raised from the dead?), changing water in to wine at the wedding feast, and feeding the multitude with the loaves and fishes.

I'd like to see someone come up with some evidence for that old bullsh*t, especially the President of the local chapter of Alleged Atheists for Jesus.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

If the question were whether or not there were some religious loony running around Palestine 2000 years ago named Yeshua who was haranguing the people about the kingdom of god, i'd say that was a no-brainer.

Indeed, that is the question as I see it, and it is a no-brainer. Congrats for seeing the light.

Of course if the issue is similar to whether or not Zeus, Odin or YHWH exist, then it's also a no brainer. Of course no man can wake up from death, walk on water, or change water in whine, therefore the precise Jesus depicted in the gospels cannot exist. But the 'historical Jesus' question is not about magic. It's about whether or not there lived a MAN who others believed to be the Messiah and (much later) God. A MAN who most probably never walked on water, and never came back from death. A MAN at the origin of the legend.

In the same way, even the gods like Odin could have a man, a real Odin dude, as its origin. Odin could be some glorified ancestor... Not saying it's true but it's certainly possible... Anyone saying, like Bill is saying about Jeebus: 'there cannot possibly be a man at the origin of the Odin myth', would need pretty strong arguments...

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@Olivier5,

In the case of Jesus, the case of his 'manhood' is buttressed by three independent sources: NT, Josephus and the Talmud.

And finally, according to Tacitus, Christians in Rome are a well established and identified group separate from the Jews by 64, the year of the great fire when Nero allegedly accused and persecuted the Christians of Rome for it. In fact, Tacitus even mentions the historical Jesus (not by name, only a certain 'Chritus':

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".
(Annals 15.44)

The writing is on the wall.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Code:Indeed, and none of the deniers have brought any single piece of evidence pointing to a fabrication...

LOL it is not the non-believers job to prove that even a man less along a god/man at one point did not walk the earth but your and believers such as yourself to prove that a religious cult leader by the name of Jesus did.

As I had said there is no solid proof and no proof outside the writing of the cult for him having walk the earth so at a rough guess the odds seem 50/50 at best to me.

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@BillRM,

I'm not talking of the US. Sate is not that separate from state in the US. I am talking of the concept, the idea that a secular state is necessary for the good of religion itself. That idea is contained in the Caesar/God phrase. If that phrase was not there, or it said instead: 'Caesar should pay to God' or something like that, the idea would have taken longer to be accepted in the West . In fact it is still not considered ok in Islam and Judaism.

Politics, as seen by Jesus, are dirty and will always be dirty. The rich and powerful are rotten but there will always be a top dog. That's why he keeps aside from politics and advise others to pay their taxes rather than revolt. His kingdom is not of this world, etc. He didn't take a subscription to 'the life of the rich and famous'.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Whoever states a thesis has to provide some evidence. Except of course if you are a conspiracy theorist, as you apparently are on this issue. Smile

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@Frank Apisa,

You said before:

Quote:

I have no idea if the Jesus of the New Testament actually existed as an individual person or not.

You said later:

Quote:

Learn how to read, Carlos.

I did NOT say that Jesus did not exist...so I cannot be saying that Moses did NOT exist also

I read perfectly your words.

And, I'm going to tell you the following:

Quote:

A dude, who doesn't know the trade of plumbing, tried to fix his leaking faucet with a plumbing wrench he found in the street. When he was forcing the water pipe to get loose, the pipe suddenly broke up and water starts to come out at full force. He doesn't even know how to cut off the water and the flooding of his house cannot be stopped.

When help arrives, he said: "I have no idea that" this mess will happen.

And yes, he had no idea because he never received any training in plumbing.

But, I'm sure that this is not your case in this discussion. I take for granted that you have been reading at least this thread and know about the several different sources and links.

Or, you don't know how to express yourself or, you are playing the game of writing opposite sentences in your answers as your whole conclusion.

Quote:

ABOUT THE TOPIC IT SELF

There are several sources from the past, that mention the existence of Yeshu (Jesus) as a man who walked on earth as you do walking the dog at the park. The sources are from different origins that might differ about who was this character, but no one of the ancient historians related him as a fiction figure.

The idea that this man never existed but that it's the product of fanatics of a sect, is just a recent fantasy invented by current fanatics who can't understand history and put their frustrations about religion against the existing historical records.

Yeshu (Jesus) did exist, but about him being a guy with powers and never been dead, etc... that is something that can be doubted.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

As I had said there is no solid proof and no proof outside the writing of the cult for him having walk the earth

That's an outright lie: the Talmud & Josephus speak of him as a man. I have posted extensively about these sources so I would appreciate a minimum of intellectual honesty from you, Bill. Either you deal with these sources or you don't but don't deny their existence.

Quote:

so at a rough guess the odds seem 50/50 at best to me.

That's progress. Yesterday you were certain he never existed... Smile

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

Whoa, whoa. Protestant kings? In 1492 Europe? Where?

.
The Elector of Saxony has been Lutheran from John the Steadfast (1525) onward. They would only expel Jews later though, in the 1570s/80s:

The influence of Luther's views

In 1543 Luther's Prince, John Frederick I, Elector of Saxony, revoked some of the concessions he gave to Josel of Rosheim in 1539. Luther's influence persisted after his death. John of Brandenburg-Küstrin, Margrave of the New March, repealed the safe conduct of Jews in his territories. Philip of Hesse added restrictions to his Order Concerning the Jews. Paul Johnson writes that Luther's followers sacked Berlin in 1572 and the following year the Jews were banned from the entire country.[25] Throughout the 1580s riots saw the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[9]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

The edict expelling all Jews from Spain was issued by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella in 1492, right around the same time that their Majesties decided to bankroll one Christobal Colon on a westward-bound voyage to the far East. It would be a while before Martin Luther nailed any theses to the front door of the Cathedral of Wurtenberg. Back then, to be called Christian, one had to be also called Catholic. There were no other kind of Christians. All dissenters were always summarily executed as heretics. There were no heretics on the thrones of European kingdoms.

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

As mentioned in my post, the first Protestant monarch gets in power only some 30 years after the reconquista. It's more or less the same period. Luther was a contemporary of the reconquista, although he was still a kid (and of course Catholic) at the times. But indeed, the first antisemitic acts of the Lutherans would come quite a while later, after the thesis "of Jews and their lies" (1543).

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Politics, as seen by Jesus, are dirty and will always be dirty. The rich and powerful are rotten but there will always be a top dog. That's why he keeps aside from politics and advise others to pay their taxes rather than revolt. His kingdom is not of this world, etc. He didn't take a subscription to 'the life of the rich and famous'.

Priests almost always take the side of those in power and if there was a cult leader by the name of Jesus he was just following that time tested example.

1 Reply

@carloslebaron,

carloslebaron wrote:

You said before:

Quote:

I have no idea if the Jesus of the New Testament actually existed as an individual person or not.

You said later:

Quote:
Learn how to read, Carlos.

I did NOT say that Jesus did not exist...so I cannot be saying that Moses did NOT exist also

I read perfectly your words.

You obviously are not reading my words anywhere closes to perfectly.

At no point did I ever say that Jesus did not exist. I said that I do not know if he existed or not.

Read it again...perhaps get a school kid to help you with the comprehension.

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@BillRM,

That's prejudice and nothing else.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

That's prejudice and nothing else.

No that is history a subject you might wish to read up on.

Priests in fact have found themselves in very bad positions when revolutions of common people do win the day due to their supports of the rulers.

Let see Mexico and France come to mind in that regard but history is full of the religion leaders being in bed with the ruling elite.

See the priests supporting of the idea of the divine rights of kings for a thousand years in Europe.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

That's progress. Yesterday you were certain he never existed.

Oh? Would you care to link to any statements of mine on this thread or any other thread on this website where I had stated that a cult leader by the name of Jesus for sure did not exist?????

A supernatural being that is part god and part human I do not think have ever existence in the history of the human race but a cult leader, while I find there is no proof of his existence but it is possible.

Waiting for your posting a statement of mine that such a cult leader could not have existed.

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This just in . . .

Here's the latest weigh-in onthis argument --

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/highlight/researcher-claims-jesus-never-existed/542c2c8078c90a52010002b7?cn=tbla

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

For some reason or other when I went to the link you was kind enough to provide all I got was a black screen but I did look at the website and found the following.

Quote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-sosa/jesus-is-just-a-myth-tell_b_5749472.html

What about the historical evidence for Jesus? We'll check in with New Testament scholar and James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Bart Ehrman. I bet he can clear this up.

There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references - nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death - even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era - there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time - the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus' name ever so much as mentioned." (pp 56-57 of Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium)
Many Christian scholars will scoff at the preceding paragraph. But the outside arguments they offer in favor of Jesus' existence, from Flavius Josephus to later figures like Tacitus, and Justin Martyr, all disintegrate upon close examination. Dan Barker gives a strong argument against their proposed "evidences" of Jesus' existence in his excellent book Godless.

I could go on for hundreds of pages about the contradictions and historical problems of the Jesus narrative. But it's quite unnecessary. The Jesus of Christianity is clearly a mythological figure. He's not even an original.

______

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@Olivier5,

What a great braying jackass. There is no "light" to be seen in anything you post. The question is whether or not Jesus ever existed, not some garden variety religious nutbag. As soon as one says "Jesus," as i've already noted, that drags in all the ludicours claims of supernatural origin and supernatural powers.

It's in a refreshing candor on your part (although probably unintentional) to see that this is all you've been babbling about all along.

1 Reply

Did Jesus Actually Exist?

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