35
   

Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 06:29 pm
Now that's closure of sorts.... :-)
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2014 12:25 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
a timeline displays what you are all arguing about> Many of us are more visual.
Ill volunteer one of my staffers to do it. (but it has to include all the actors and their roles and their references above)

That'd be nice.

One could start with Daniel, continue with the growth of the "inter-testamental" Judaic messianic culture (Book of Enock, Essenes...), then John the Baptist, moving on to Jesus, James and Paul, then the Fathers of the Church on one bifurcation, the gnostics on another (Valentinus, etc.), and rabbinic Judaism and the development of the Talmud on a third.

The "inter-testamental" period is a period between the OT books and the NT ones, corresponding to -400 to +50 or so, and long considered "silent" in terms of scripture but now well documented. During that period, following the Maccabees' failure to establish an independent state in Judea, an intense messianic fever developed in Judea, building upon Daniel's visions, with some particular terminology like that of the "Son of Man", a phrase constantly used by Jesus to mean the messiah. This messianic literature was deemed non-canonical by both the Rabbis and the Church, and therefore was largely lost and forgotten. Only a few books remain, such as the Book of Enoch (considered canon by Ethiopian Jews, and thus extant in Gueze language), the Book of Tobit, Ezra, Barush...

Many of these were found at Qumran, and their study helps understand Jesus' Jewish religious background. I mention this because one of the arguments for a pagan fabrication of Jesus is that the theology of Christianity is quite different from Judaism, and deemed closer to certain pagan cults. This is mistaken, an artifact due to the lack of documentation of the inter-testamental period. Once this period is factored in, Jesus' phraseology (e.g. the "Son of Man", but also "Son of God" which is a messianic title mentioned at Qumran), his obsession with the Kingdom of God, and the rites he promoted (e.g. the sharing of bred and whine) appear genuinely home-grown.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:01 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

why does anyone care about the belief systems of others?


Well if those people kept their belief systems to themselves then you would have a point. The problem comes up when these same people want to push their belief system onto everyone else or to persuade political policies or laws.

By all means keep your belief system to yourself unless you want others input into how much nonsense or bullshit it is.

glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:18 am
@Krumple,
So a day late and a dollar short. My comment was posted early in this thread. I don't give a crap what anyone considers a legitimate religious belief. So I have already 'not done' what you tell me not to do. You don't have a clue what my belief system is, I don't give a crap what yours are. I just find all this "I know what God wants and the rest of you are headed to Hell" incredibly tedious. But thanks for responding to a comment I made in May 2013,
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:23 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

So a day late and a dollar short. My comment was posted early in this thread. I don't give a crap what anyone considers a legitimate religious belief. So I have already 'not done' what you tell me not to do. You don't have a clue what my belief system is, I don't give a crap what yours are. I just find all this "I know what God wants and the rest of you are headed to Hell" incredibly tedious. But thanks for responding to a comment I made in May 2013,



So just because you personally don't give a **** about others beliefs, means that I shouldn't either. That you are some how a superior person for not caring what others think? My point still stands which you seem to ignore. I wouldn't care either but the fact is most people want to push their belief systems onto the rest of society and attempt force people who don't accept their beliefs to accept them. In the past if you didn't believe in certain religious views you might be put to death or imprisoned.

So I stand by it. Feel free to keep your bullshit (beliefs) to yourself unless you want your nonsense analyzed and or debunked.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:25 am
@glitterbag,
Krumple's a ******* idiot, and a Holocaust denier. If anyone is trying to impose their religious beliefs on anyone it's her. She rubbishes, in the meanest way possible, anyone who thinks there may be a point to any of this. Personally I think she's trying to make up for something, but being an atheist doesn't make her any less of a moron.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:32 am
@Krumple,
Asshole, my life is not just Internet. You are missing the point, I don't think people should be judged regarding their belief system. I find it incredibly nosy and I sure as Hell don't feel a need to discuss religion or non-religious things with you. You can ask a personal question, but I don't need to answer simply because you are intrusive.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:35 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Asshole, my life is not just Internet. You are missing the point, I don't think people should be judged regarding their belief system. I find it incredibly nosy and I sure as Hell don't feel a need to discuss religion or non-religious things with you. You can ask a personal question, but I don't need to answer simply because you are intrusive.


Wow could you get any more contradictory?

glitterbag wrote:
You are missing the point, I don't think people should be judged regarding their belief system.



glitterbag wrote:
Asshole


Did you not just do what you claimed you don't do? Or shouldn't do? Irony?
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:40 am
@Krumple,
Please tell me you are not really that stupid.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:48 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Please tell me you are not really that stupid.


Nah, K's not going to tell you that. He's an honest dude and doesn't lie.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:48 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Please tell me you are not really that stupid.


Yep I am that stupid could you please explain how you didn't contradict yourself? Thanks in advance.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 04:58 am
@Krumple,
Short answer, I made a comment that indicates I think people should worship or not worship as they see fit. The thread is about "did Jrsus exist", I choose not to engage people on their religion or not religion because it doesn't matter.

My statement is not a contradiction, I was not addressing or attempting to ferret out your religious leanings. I made that comment in May 2013, now you show up???

What makes you an asshole is you reaching back and deciding to confront me because you didn't understand my comment. I'm now going to vote this pissing contest down, you bore me, AND you have behaved as a smug jerk.
Krumple
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 05:04 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Short answer, I made a comment that indicates I think people should worship or not worship as they see fit. The thread is about "did Jrsus exist", I choose not to engage people on their religion or not religion because it doesn't matter.


But this statement itself contradicts your claim.

It doesn't matter to you but it might to others. Why do you get to assume everyone should hold your point of view? Pushing your "it doesn't matter" beliefs onto everyone?

glitterbag wrote:

My statement is not a contradiction, I was not addressing or attempting to ferret out your religious leanings. I made that comment in May 2013, now you show up???


So what's the window of response time for you? If someone doesn't respond within your allotted time frame then they shouldn't respond at all? **** why bother keeping around old posts then, shouldn't we just delete posts after a certain day so your feelings don't get hurt when someone makes a post on your old topics?

glitterbag wrote:

What makes you an asshole is you reaching back and deciding to confront me because you didn't understand my comment. I'm now going to vote this pissing contest down, you bore me, AND you have behaved as a smug jerk.


No you are just mad that I pointed out your contradiction.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 05:16 am
@Olivier5,
From Early-Christian-Writings-dot-com's page on the Testimonium:

Quote:
Louis H. Feldman writes (Josephus, Judaism and Christianity, p. 57): "The fact that an ancient table of contents, already referred to in the Latin version of the fifth or sixth century, omits mention of the Testimionium (though, admittedly, it is selective, one must find it hard to believe that such a remarkable passage would be omitted by anyone, let alone by a Christian, summarizing the work) is further indication that there was no such notice..." I regard this as an important and powerful piece of evidence, although one that doesn't get much attention.


Furthermore, Feldman published a survey of modern scholarship on the question in 1984: Feldman, Louis H. Josephus and Modern Scholarship. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1984, in which he stated that just more than 80% of those scholars, which included theologians and the overwhelming majority of whom were Christian--considered the Josephus passage to be in part or entirely an interpolation.

That's a fact, Mr. Scientific Culture.

From the Wikipedia biography:

Quote:
Louis Harry Feldman (born 29 October 1926) is an American professor of classics and literature. He is Abraham Wouk Family Professor of Classics and Literature at Yeshiva University, the institution at which he has taught since 1956.

Feldman is a scholar of Hellenistic civilization, specifically the works of Josephus Flavius. Feldman's work on Josephus is widely respected by other scholars.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 05:20 am
I think I can revert to my original position that no Jesus actually walked on the Earth, without some real proof.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 05:22 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

[quote="..

It doesn't matter to you but it might to others. Why do you get to assume everyone should hold your point of view? Pushing your "it doesn't matter"


I'm not pushing an agenda you dolt, I choose not to judge others on one narrow spectrum. I have a question for you, Why would I care about what others want me to believe or not believe? Have you found the one true path to salvation? Goody for you, I'm happy for you. Just don't assume I'm the arbiter of what religious beliefs others should adhere to. Sharpen up your reading comprehension.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 05:50 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
I'm not pushing an agenda you dolt, I choose not to judge others on one narrow spectrum. I have a question for you, Why would I care about what others want me to believe or not believe? Have you found the one true path to salvation? Goody for you, I'm happy for you. Just don't assume I'm the arbiter of what religious beliefs others should adhere to. Sharpen up your reading comprehension.


I'm going to apologize, I actually thought for a minute that you had some intellect or intelligence or something. You have a gift at pointing out your own errors as attempts to claim others have them. So I am really sorry that I thought you were smart enough to actually communicate with. I'll try not to make that same mistake.

Maybe you should change your username to Windbag, it'll be more suiting for ya.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 05:59 am
At some point, there was a person (or some people) who realized that loving one another was a better option for civilization than constantly hating and fighting.

So the "message" was born.

To most of us...the ones who feel the message is a worthwhile message, it doesn't really matter how the message arose...if it came from one guy named Jesus or a whole bunch of people.

The only people to whom it really does seem important are the people who are screwing over the message.

Weird that!
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 06:17 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

At some point, there was a person (or some people) who realized that loving one another was a better option for civilization than constantly hating and fighting.

So the "message" was born.

To most of us...the ones who feel the message is a worthwhile message, it doesn't really matter how the message arose...if it came from one guy named Jesus or a whole bunch of people.

The only people to whom it really does seem important are the people who are screwing over the message.

Weird that!



Was this before or after the message to murder disobedient children?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2014 06:43 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

At some point, there was a person (or some people) who realized that loving one another was a better option for civilization than constantly hating and fighting.

So the "message" was born.

To most of us...the ones who feel the message is a worthwhile message, it doesn't really matter how the message arose...if it came from one guy named Jesus or a whole bunch of people.

The only people to whom it really does seem important are the people who are screwing over the message.

Weird that!



Was this before or after the message to murder disobedient children?


The supposed Jesus lived after what we now call the Old Testament was written...and that message is in the Old Testament...so it would have to be after.

Jesus essentially was saying that we should love one another.
 

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