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If the soul is mortal why do christians believe in hell?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Sep, 2013 07:42 pm
@igm,
Finally got it. See above
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:08 am
Neologist wrote:
Quote:
Since there is no consciousness after death, eternal punishment is not possible


Ha ha, that may be what you JW's think, in which case argue with Jesus what the phrase "eternal punishment" means when you meet him..Wink
Jesus said-
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt 25:46)
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 10:04 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
You make a strong argument my friend, but your scripture there states that the righteous will receive everlasting life but the unrighteous will not. Rather that the punishment is an alternative to everlasting life.
Is it insurmountable that alternative, or "punishment" could amount to everlasting death?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 10:47 am
Smileyrius wrote:
Quote:
You make a strong argument my friend, but your scripture there states that the righteous will receive everlasting life but the unrighteous will not. Rather that the punishment is an alternative to everlasting life.
Is it insurmountable that alternative, or "punishment" could amount to everlasting death?


What mate? Are you another JW?..Wink
Nobody knows what death ("the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns" -Hamlet) actually is; all we know is that Jesus said when we die we go to heaven (nice) or hell (not nice).
And although the Bible describes hell as "fire", it also dexcribes it as darkness-"Ungodly men,wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever" (Jude 1:4-19)

We can therefore speculate that when an evil soul is stripped of its fleshly body at death, it floats off into the void forever-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/freakouteyes.jpg



InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 01:41 pm
@neologist,
Strong's Concordance and Trench's Synonyms have the word kolasis translated as "correction, punishment, penalty, torment." Trench's Synonyms explains the idea of "torment" as the word is used in 1 John 4:18 by comparing its use by various Hellenistic authors such as Philo and Josephus.

The New World Translation, probably through The Emphatic Diaglott, adds a further meaning to the word kolasis as it has it translated as "restraint," indubitably to avoid the word's actual meanings.

The Empahitc Diaglott goes into a tourtured rationalization of the word kolasis what with its reference to its root, and the metaphorical use that it asserts.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 01:52 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Neologist said- "So, is the soul mortal?"
-----------------------------------------------

In what sense are you using the word "mortal"?


I think it is usually futile to engage in such conversations, but my understanding has always been that the soul is immortal. While you're alive, the soul is usually referred to as your mortal soul, when you die, voila, the soul continues to exist therefore immortal.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:06 pm
Glitterbag wrote:
Quote:
my understanding has always been that the soul is immortal. While you're alive, the soul is usually referred to as your mortal soul, when you die, voila, the soul continues to exist therefore immortal


Yes absolutely, as Paul makes quite clear when he likens the death of the body to the planting of a seed-
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:42-50)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:10 pm
@InfraBlue,
There is a good discussion of the word here: http://www.4yhwh.com/Bible-Files/kolasin.htm
Punishment, correction, lopping off. or death without hope for resurrection: none of which are desirable consequences. But since the dead are no longer conscious, there is little room for roasting toasting, baking, or broiling.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:20 pm
The dead are no longer conscious but they're only asleep for a while-
Jesus said of his dead friend "Lazarus is asleep, but I'm going to wake him up now" (John 11:11)
Jesus said “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” (Mark 5:39)
"Don't grieve for those asleep,for they sleep in Jesus" (1 Thess 4:13/14)


Then on judgment day we ALL get a wake-up call-
Jesus said:- "All in the graves shall come out.."(John 5:28/29)

And sentence is pronounced-
Jesus said "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matt 25:46)
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:21 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Nobody knows what death ("the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns" -Hamlet) actually is; all we know is that Jesus said when we die we go to heaven (nice) or hell (not nice).
And although the Bible describes hell as "fire", it also dexcribes it as darkness-"Ungodly men,wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever" (Jude 1:4-19)
Job's expectations may interest you: " O that in She′ol you would conceal me,
That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!
14 If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?
All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait,
Until my relief comes.
15 You will call, and I myself shall answer you.
For the work of your hands you will have a yearning. (Job 14:13-15)

BTW, do you suppose Adam and Eve did not understand what death meant? What part of "to dust you shall return" is not clear?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:28 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
No loving parent would consider, even for a moment, punishing his or her child with fire. The reason, of course, is that God has created in us the sublime qualities of love and mercy. So why would you suppose the God who possesses these qualities in the superlative would punish any of his children so cruelly?

And why would he not warn Adam and Eve of such a dire consequence?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:32 pm
@neologist,
The Old Testament notions of hell are not always accurate, that's why Jesus trumps them all just as he said-
"I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (Matt 13:35)

And Paul reminded people to stay focussed on Jesus and not get bogged down in convoluted Frankensteinian theology-
"I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)


glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:43 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
They seek him here,
They seek him there,
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere
Is he in heaven, is he in hell?
That damned elusive Pimpernel.


neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 02:57 pm
@glitterbag,
Posies are best when we are not pushing them up from below
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Sep, 2013 03:22 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

There is a good discussion of the word here: http://www.4yhwh.com/Bible-Files/kolasin.htm

Yeah, I see that they state their case through interpretation without your tourtured translation.

Quote:
Punishment, correction, lopping off. or death without hope for resurrection: none of which are desirable consequences. But since the dead are no longer conscious, there is little room for roasting toasting, baking, or broiling.


All of which doesn't address the meaning of the word kolasin, merely it's your opinion of the idea of an afterlife by which you rationalize your mistranslation of that word.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Sep, 2013 01:22 am
@InfraBlue,
Either the Bible is consistent or it is not.
If not, it cannot be a reliable guide and is merely ancient literature.
If it is consistent, then Matthew 25:46 is not speaking of conscious torment.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Sep, 2013 05:22 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Either the Bible is consistent or it is not.
If not, it cannot be a reliable guide and is merely ancient literature.
If it is consistent, then Matthew 25:46 is not speaking of conscious torment.


Excellent observation, Neo.

And the Bible is not consistent.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Sep, 2013 06:12 am
In one breath atheists say "The Bible is not consistent", then in their next breath they say it's been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good.
Wish they'd stop flip-flopping and make up their minds whether it's been prettied up or not..Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Sep, 2013 06:33 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

In one breath atheists say "The Bible is not consistent", then in their next breath they say it's been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good.


Well, I am not an atheist...and so I will not speak for them.

But speaking for myself...I am saying that I see the Bible as very inconsistent.

(And I cannot see how the fact that it may have been "edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries" would impact on that.

Quote:

Wish they'd stop flip-flopping and make up their minds whether it's been prettied up or not..Wink


No flip-flopping that I can see.

It does sound to me though, Romeo, that you recognize that the Bible IS inconsistent...and that seems to bother you in some way.

Maybe you ought to be dealing with that...rather than trying to set "atheists" straight. Ya know...first tend to the lumber in your own eye.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Sep, 2013 07:17 am
@Frank Apisa,
Romeo is one of those people who thinks that if he says something that makes it true. (He's not the only one.)

One clear example of his refusal to face facts is his insistence that the guy who wrote Matthew's Gospel was also a disciple. Any serious scholar of Biblical History will tell you that's a load of old bollocks. It was written sometime between 70 and 110 AD, long after the original disciples, (if there were any,) had passed on.
 

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