17
   

Why I am an athiest

 
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's not logic. The wording is already on record.

I asked a simple question,
Quote:
What are "every statement or detail?" as it pertains to that video?



Are you asking me to write a transcript? Sorry, but I just don't have the time or inclination.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:22 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
In the video, Searle was emphatic that he thinks the mind/body duality is false. Do you part ways with him on that point?


Not in the sense he said it. Mental processes constitute a real and operative / causal level of the biological machine called the brain. Mental processes are like a long poem written on the brain.

Where is the "duality" between the poem as a poem, the verses, the words, the characters, the ink dots on the paper? Where do you see a "duality" there? There are just several levels of analysis of the same phenomenon: a poem written on paper.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:26 pm
@FBM,
Thought so. Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:34 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
the sense of self may or may not have a referent, a "true" self.


Ok, and when you see a projectile flying right in you direction, do you believe only your sense of this projectile, in your sensasion of it (sight, sound of he object) or do you rapidely convince yourself of the reality of the projectile itself, and duck?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:06 pm
@Olivier5,
Isn't reality wunnerful? Some people don't have it! LOL
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yep. We're all turning merrily around and around like poneys in a circus...
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:33 pm
@Olivier5,
You suggested mind/body duality here:

Olivier5 wrote:

The takeaway for me is that it's mind over body. The causal level is the thought level, not the neuronal level.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:36 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
the sense of self may or may not have a referent, a "true" self.


Ok, and when you see a projectile flying right in you direction, do you believe only your sense of this projectile, in your sensasion of it (sight, sound of he object) or do you rapidely convince yourself of the reality of the projectile itself, and duck?


At such a moment, there's no time to believe. My instincts make me duck. No belief required. If I took the time to think about whether or not I believed in it, I'd get hit.

And I reiterate, Pyrrhonists don't doubt sensory input; they refuse to make metaphysical assertions that the input doesn't require.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:40 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
You suggested mind/body duality here:

Olivier5 wrote:

The takeaway for me is that it's mind over body. The causal level is the thought level, not the neuronal level.


It's not a duality, it's the poem level of analsis, versus the ink and paper level. The poem, as a text, together with typographic factors (font, etc.) determines where the ink dots will be. The poem level is the important one, where interesting stuff worthy of exploration happen. Don't look only at the ink dots side of things.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:54 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
At such a moment, there's no time to believe. My instincts make me duck. No belief required. If I took the time to think about whether or not I believed in it, I'd get hit.


LOL. therefore you have an inate and very strong preference for self-preservation... But imagine you have time to think? Like if a car was not-so-slowly rolling in your direction. What do you do, and what is your thought process?

Quote:
And I reiterate, Pyrrhonists don't doubt sensory input; they refuse to make metaphysical assertions that the input doesn't require.


I don't know about Pyrrhon, but you do doubt your own sensory input: your sensation of your self, your experience of self.

IOW, why do you not doubt the existence of a referent in the case of a thing outside of you, and independant from you, but you do doubt the existence of the referent when it is "in" or equal to you? That seems absurd.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 04:06 am
@FBM,
Well said!
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 07:19 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
You suggested mind/body duality here:

Olivier5 wrote:

The takeaway for me is that it's mind over body. The causal level is the thought level, not the neuronal level.


It's not a duality, it's the poem level of analsis, versus the ink and paper level. The poem, as a text, together with typographic factors (font, etc.) determines where the ink dots will be. The poem level is the important one, where interesting stuff worthy of exploration happen. Don't look only at the ink dots side of things.


Oh. So I should ignore what you say and focus on what you mean. I'll do my best. Wink
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 07:20 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Well said!


Thanks. Smile
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 07:31 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
LOL. therefore you have an inate and very strong preference for self-preservation... But imagine you have time to think? Like if a car was not-so-slowly rolling in your direction. What do you do, and what is your thought process?


I behave pretty much the way anyone else behaves in that situation. My past experiences tell me that getting hit by large objects hurts. It looks like you're still trying to construct yet another bizarre straw man. For a brief while there, I thought we had a chance at a mutually respectful rational discourse. I can't understand why you insist on creating one straw man after another.

Quote:
I don't know about Pyrrhon, but you do doubt your own sensory input: your sensation of your self, your experience of self.


Where did I say that I doubted the sense of self or my experience of it? Either you're honestly misunderstanding me or deliberately making another straw man out of another non sequitur, or maybe something else, but whatever it is, you're still not actually, accurately addressing anything I've said.

Quote:
IOW, why do you not doubt the existence of a referent in the case of a thing outside of you, and independant from you, but you do doubt the existence of the referent when it is "in" or equal to you? That seems absurd.


No, it seems contradictory (to you, anyway). Absurd means something else. Check a dictionary.

You seem to still be working on the assumption that being skeptical (doubting in the sense of questioning, investigating, not claiming) is equivalent to claiming that something doesn't exist. I didn't say the self doesn't exist, I don't say cars don't exist.

If you read what I actually say, and respond to what I actually say, instead of jumping to conclusions and making unfounded assumptions, we might actually be able to make progress here. Might I suggest that instead of assuming that I mean X, how about just asking me if I mean X? That would prevent a lot of this confusion, I think.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 07:51 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Where did I say that I doubted the sense of self or my experience of it?


You just don't understand my question. Why do you doubt the self, and not the projectile, when in both cases you have exactly the same thing to go by: a sense of it? What makes a projectile more believable than a self?

Quote:
I didn't say the self doesn't exist, I don't say cars don't exist.


So you say the same thing about cars and self? That both may or may not exist?

Quote:
My past experiences tell me that getting hit by large objects hurts


Therefore you assume the car or projectile exists based on experience! Why don't you assume that selves exist based on same experience???

I can't make these questions any simpler.



Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 08:03 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Oh. So I should ignore what you say and focus on what you mean. I'll do my best.


I haven't even talked of the meaning(s) of the poem, which is yet another level, higher than the text of the poem, which is itself hiher than the typographic level, itself situated above the ink dot level. Which itself is a bunch of molecules (another level) which themselves are composed of atoms, that are composed of particules.

At least 7 levels of analysis in a single poem. As a rule, focus as high as you can. That's where the good stuff is.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 08:10 am
@Olivier5,
Because I don't experience a self. I only experience a sense of self. I don't make metaphysical declarations based on that experience; I just react to it.

Similarly, I experience pain when things hit me, but I don't make metaphysical declarations based on those experiences; I just react to them.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/296093.Skepticism_and_the_Veil_of_Perception_Studies_in_Epistemology_and_Cognitive_Theory

I'm still curious as to why this topic (apparently) incites such an emotional reaction in you and cicerone, to the point that you write condescending and belittling comments? I don't care about playground politics one way or the other, but I'm puzzled as to why you'd get so emotional about another person's approach to investigating the question as to whether or not it is possible to live without beliefs.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 08:17 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Because I don't experience a self. I only experience a sense of self. I don't make metaphysical declarations based on that experience; I just react to it.


The same could be said about the car: you experience a sensation of it. Yet you assume it exists and duck.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 08:31 am
@FBM,
You wrote,
Quote:
Because I don't experience a self. I only experience a sense of self


Please explain. Sounds like you're speaking in the third person here.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 08:32 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Because I don't experience a self. I only experience a sense of self. I don't make metaphysical declarations based on that experience; I just react to it.


The same could be said about the car: you experience a sensation of it. Yet you assume it exists and duck.



Phenomenologically, I don't experience a car. I experience sights and sounds and, due to past experience, associate that with pain if it were to hit me. I don't assume anything, I don't think about it at all (there's no time to do philosophy in such a situation), I don't formulate beliefs on it, my body reacts somatically in the way it has been conditioned to by past experience, not philosophical speculation.

If you put a toddler in front of an oncoming car, and that toddler hasn't had the experience of being hit by fast-moving objects, watch what happens: s/he just stands there looking at the car until someone snatches him/her out of the way. Parents typically protect children from deadly fast-moving, solid objects until the child has been hit (as virtually any child eventually does) by some smaller, non-lethal objects and develops the dodge reaction for him/herself.

Somatic. Not philosophical. If a 5-year-old child moves out of the way of an oncoming vehicle, are you going to claim that s/he has done complex philosophical reflection in order to arrive at the decision to move out of the way? Are you going to claim that this 5-year-old child is making an ontological/epistemological/metaphysical statement? It seems more likely to me that s/he is simply reacting somatically, without deep philosophical reflection.
 

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