Why I am an athiest

@Olivier5,

Clearly stated. Unless we all exist, there would be no a2k. Laughing

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Clearly stated. Unless we all exist, there would be no a2k. LaughingLaughingCoolCoolRolling EyesRolling Eyes2 Cents2 Cents

I'm not so sure about your existence, though... ;-) please prove it.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Simple; you acknowledged my post on a2k. What other proof do you need?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Well, I am sorry to inform that the "I" that acknowledged your post was really a figure of speech... You see, my "self" is a highly complex and non-conventional entity that can say one thing with one corner of its mouth, and another thing with the other corner... :-)

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

• You believe you exist, including as a mental entity, if flickering and changing.
• You believe in petri dishes, labs and science bringing some sort of credibility and certainty. Therefore you believe in reason and observation to exist, and to be usefully pursued by some mental entity who can observe and reason.
• You believe that you are transparent to yourself, i.e. you can state in all sincerity: “I hold no belief”. You think you can explore the totality of that entity that you call “you” and make sure there’s no belief anywhere in there. (this IMO is a most unwise belief to hold; we are largely opaque to ourselves)
• You believe you can change that entity that you are, by sheer will, e.g. you can chose to “jettison your beliefs”, hence you believe that this thing called “you” is an agent having mastery and control over itself.
• And of course, you believe you don’t have beliefs.

QED

First-hand experience isn't belief. First-person knowledge isn't belief. English isn't your native language, is it? I don't mean that in an insulting way. I just mean to point out the difference in definition between belief and experience. I don't harbor beliefs about any of the things in your list. There are first-person experiences and reactions to them. I don't see any reason to have beliefs about something that can be checked out empirically. Do I believe that I have money in my pocket? Why believe when I can stick my hand in my pocket and find out?

2 Replies

@FBM,

More importantly, do you believe you're the one sticking your hand in your pocket to see if you have money? LOL

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

More importantly, do you believe you're the one sticking your hand in your pocket to see if you have money? LOL

I'm not sure. I'll have to make a video of it, I guess. Wink

0 Replies

@FBM,

Quote:

First-hand experience isn't belief.

Let's try and deconstruct "experience". Human language always says way too much. There are always hidden assumptions.

In order for any first-hand experience to exist, there need to be 1) something or somebody able to experience 1st-hand. I grant you and Decartes that it is not materially possible to doubt your own existence as a... (what word would you use?) conscience since you have the most direct experience of it. You can hear your own voice in there... Anyone seriously challenging his own existence as a conscience is not trusting his most intimate experience very much...

But what proof do you have that anything outside that conscience exists? Your senses. How do you know you can trust your senses? That you're not making the whole thing up or living in the Matrix? That's 2 more assumptions, which cannot logically be based on experience because they logically precede it:

2) something or somebody to be experienced,
3) a kind of data link between the two, in the form of well-honed senses (sight, earing, etc., or a video camera if you prefer) allowing 1 to experience 2.

These 2, you have to assume exist, before you can have any true experience of anything. Call them axioms or assumptions but you can't do without them if you trust experience.

You said you practiced introspection, didn't you? That implies its own series of assumptions, including self-visibility or self-transparence. How do you know you're not hidding stuff from your conscience? Ever heard of Freud?

You asked how heavy was a self and if I could put one in a petri dish. That betrays a belief in materialism and science...

Quote:

First-person knowledge isn't belief

How many grams does first-person knowledge weigh?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

I gather from your reply that you didn't bother to look at the links on Pyrrhonism that I provided. You're not the first to come up with those arguments, and I doubt you'll be the last.

Now you're conflating first-hand experience with not only belief, but also assumptions. These things are not synonymous. Having first-hand experiences is involuntary, and responding to that experience in accordance to conventions and practicality does not in any way imply any belief. I don't believe in materialism or science outside of first-hand experience. Any inference made about experience for the sake of convenience and/or practicality does not imply belief. It only belies the desire to be comfortable.

The weight of first-hand experience would be relevant if I were setting out to provide evidence that something exists, which I'm not. You're doing that with your god. Not me.

3 Replies

@FBM,

Since you have no belief, which college did you attend? (Since according to you, they are all "involuntary.") Mr. Green

1 Reply

@FBM,

Quote:

I gather from your reply that you didn't bother to look at the links on Pyrrhonism that I provided.

Actually I read some of it including the part you describe about convenient and comfortable arrangements with "reality": at best it can be a form of detachement, healthy IMO, from too greedy and self-involved a life. At worse, it's an excuse to not actually practice your own philosophy. It's like you're not fully in the game but you'll still play because your palls do. You can't live fully like this. Any life needs a few moments of briliance. It lacks coherence, too.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Since you have no belief, which college did you attend? (Since according to you, they are all "involuntary.")

That's going to take us into the hell called the free will-determinism debate, and I don't think anyone wants to go there. Wink

I meant involuntary sensations, anyway. You open your eyes in light and unless you're blind, you see what's in front of you.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Those are emotive value statements, but I don't see any rational support for those beliefs. If you'd like to explain your comments with reasoning, I'll hear you out. I do try to keep an open mind.

1 Reply

@FBM,

How can you see anything? It's nothing you can substantiate. Is seeing involuntary too? LOL How about physical pain?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

How can you see anything? It's nothing you can substantiate. Is seeing involuntary too? LOL How about physical pain?

I'm not sure where you're coming from. Did you see my earlier response?

1 Reply

@FBM,

You wrote,

Quote:

I meant involuntary sensations, anyway. You open your eyes in light and unless you're blind, you see what's in front of you.

I guess you don't consciously open you eyes since it's "involuntary."

You also wrote,

Quote:

First-hand experience isn't belief. First-person knowledge isn't belief.

Quote:

be·lief
/biˈlēf/
Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
Synonyms
faith - trust - confidence - persuasion - credence

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

It's the seeing that's involuntary.

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@cicerone imposter,

Like I said, that's going down the road to the free will-determination debate. Do you want to go there? I've got some sources from neuroscientists that suggest free will may be just another sense created by the brain. I'm undecided, but if you want to bring out evidence and compare, I'm fine with that, I guess. I don't relish the prospect of going back over that old ground yet again, but if it's important to you, I'll do my best.

With regards to opening my eyes or any other behavior, I'm not convinced that there's any conscious choice made. Nor am I convinced of the opposite. The question doesn't have much impact on my daily life, as far as I can tell.

But once my eyes are open, I can't refuse to let my brain process the visual stimuli. Can you?

Quote:

be·lief
/biˈlēf/
Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
Synonyms
faith - trust - confidence - persuasion - credence

OK, what's your point?

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@FBM,

Quote:

Those are emotive value statements, but I don't see any rational support for those beliefs. If you'd like to explain your comments with reasoning, I'll hear you out. I do try to keep an open mind.

These are just my opinion. Rationale, emotive, whatever... You still haven't accepted a belief in reason so why would you want to reason, and why in hell would reason be better than emotions?... In a world without fundamental axioms, anything goes.

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@FBM,

For me and many others, it doesn't matter how neuroscientists wish to translate our "reality." The very fact that what I have done during my 77 years of life on this planet was pretty much decided by myself, tells me, at least, that there is a form of reality we can rely on to be factual.

I have traveled to over 190 countries; nobody chose those trips for me, I did!

I even have photographs to prove I've been to many of those places, and people visit my travel blog (over 34,000 hits) from all over the world. You are welcome to visit my travel blog at www.travelpod.com/members/c.i.222

I'm sure there have been some limits to my life based on my biology and environment (mostly to do with our scenses), but as far as I'm concerned, I've accomplished a lot more than what I ever dreamt as a child. I almost flunked out of high school, but worked in management during 27 years of my 30 year career.

I have met some interesting folks including Bob Brodsky in 2008, a rocket scientist who designed the aerodymanics on the nuclear weapons I worked with during my four year career in the USAF - Strategic Air Command - in the late fifties. He also started Astronautics at USC and Iowa State Universities. We have kept in touch all these years. I have friends around the world - people I've met during my travels and through acquaintances and friends.

I have met many a2k members through Meets in London, Chicago, Houston, Austin, Lippstadt, and San Francisco. They are all "real," and I "believe" I've participated in all those activities.

You may live in a world of no beliefs, but mine is full of them.

It's been a great run.

Quote:

Quote:
be·lief
/biˈlēf/
Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
Synonyms
faith - trust - confidence - persuasion - credence

That is my point!

0 Replies

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