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Is the theory of evolution correct?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 12:11 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I think you're just holding out for a special creation because you think we, as humans, are just too damned wonderful to have "happened by accident."
Well, you and I are wonderful, Set. I don't know about everybody else.

But seriously, you and I are operating from a different set of axioms; it's no surprise we should come to different conclusions.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 12:33 pm
@farmerman,
Do you believe most believers in evolutionary theory truly understand the 'science' behind it? Or, are most simply following because "Set and Farmer and Dawkins are really smart and they believe, so it must be right"? I am of the opinion that most are of the latter persuasion.

I will be the first to admit that I don't know squat about geology; but I operate far above the level of moron. I understand that things are not judged profound by their complexity, nor must they be complex to be profound. Well, the Bible is not a scientific treatise. It was not written for an intellectual priesthood to dominate the unsophisticated. It was written so the unsophisticated among us could understand why we have war and crime and sickness and death, what God intends to do about it, and how to live with life's problems meantime. From that point of view, I've lowered the pedestal of scientists to only slightly above that of politicians, though light years above the priesthood.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 01:32 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Do you believe most believers in evolutionary theory truly understand the 'science' behind it? Or, are most simply following because "Set and Farmer and Dawkins are really smart and they believe, so it must be right"? I am of the opinion that most are of the latter persuasion.

It would be interesting to know the actual statistics on that, but I suspect that most of the people who recognize that the theory of evolution most accurately and effectively explains the evidence we see in the natural world, do so because they understand the basic theory well enough to recognize it's validity.

In other words, I don't think you will find many adults who say that they agree with the theory of evolution simply because someone told them to agree with it. I bet most would offer some foundational scientific explanation.

It doesn't take a lot of technical knowledge to recognize the validity of evolution, it's pretty freaking obvious when you get right down to it.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 01:36 pm
@neologist,
That's a poor choice of words on your part. The number one definition of axiom in a google search reads: A statement or proposition that is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true. The beginning of the definition at Wikipedia reads: An axiom, or postulate, is a premise or starting point of reasoning. As classically conceived, an axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy. The word comes from the Greek ἀξίωμα 'that which is thought worthy or fit,' or 'that which commends itself as evident.

Your big sky daddy is not self-evident, and there is no evidence for your bible fairy tales. You can hardly call your position one which is based on axioms. That you stipulate your big sky daddy and special creations is understood. It is not axiomatic.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 01:42 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
it's pretty freaking obvious when you get right down to it.


The same can be said for a descriptive approach to language issues and yet you have the vast majority of Americans [and others] still clinging to the irrational and the ignorant.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 03:28 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Do you believe most believers in evolutionary theory truly understand the 'science' behind it?
The only belief I hold is in the accuracy of the data used in evidence. The sciences are hardly perfect as the Piltdown man, Swanscombe man, The "Hobbit" and several "manufactured" birds from Liaoning show us. But science, IS self correcting . When religions finally accept science, its usually only after the mound of evidence is irrefutable and the clergy would look silly . (It only took a minor stipulation on evidence to have a 20th century Pope submit that the science behind natural selection was pretty undeniable)

I do believe that the vast majority of people who accept natural selection are quite familiar with it because it is an amazingly simple concept brilliantly and simply presented. Reading Darwin should begin with his "Voyage of the Beagle", a great tale of exploration written in a style that , once it is clearly understood, is able to carry you easily through his "Origin of SPecies..."

"Origins..." is not really about a mechanism , so much as it is a lab workbook of the mechanism of natural selection. Its mostly about His experiments , observations, and collections of evidence that underpins the theory (Which he actually wrote and developed 15 years before his panic publication of "Origins...")All this is presented along with his (sortof) Victorian "Oh wows" and "Gollees" as only he could present .
The actual science behind Darwin has gotten increasingly specialized , its true. However, Darwin was totally unaware of the science of genetics (When he first penned his outline in 1844 Mendel's work was still 2 decades off. Further, he was free of the knowldge provided by the discovery of DNA, which,while it occured in the 1870's, was not understood to be a life coding apparatus until the 1930's). So ctually understanding and accepting evolution from Darwin's POV is crystally clear and presented as convincingly as is possible. His concepts were and are simple, precise, and concise.
I dont think most anyone would have a hard time understanding evolution if presented in a fashion that uses Darwin as a framework and goes on from there. Several of our regulars herein(like spendius) actually mock the science of Nat selection as so easy nd idiot could understand it. Ill agree with Dr spendi there. The actual evidentiary sciences that prove much of what Darwin said are, full of math, maths, expensive equipment, and lots of field work. These sciences do develop languages and "tongues" that become difficult to grasp but sooner or later, someone comes al;ong and writes a really simplified explanation of what it was that Watson and Crick found and what Dr Fairbanks discoveredabout the DNA overprints between a chimp and a man.

Maybe it does take "effort" but I cant see how memorizing a bunch of old Biblical tales about things we know didnt occur (like a Flood over the planet or a 7 day event culminating in special creation) is a reasonable use of ones mind.

If you are intimating that people are accepting stuff I or set , MJ or Rosborne may say from some kind of "authority", you are waaaayoff sir. I think youd be surprised at how well understood nat selection is herein and its not from anything we do. A bunch of us merely like to get into dustups with those whose worldview is based not so much on fact as legend. We may be a bunch of busybodies but anytime people drop in with comments pro-scence, they are rarely wacky. They are usually pretty well thought out and often quite deep.

Even spendi, who is a consumate contrarian, only adds another form of wordplay to our soup. He just likes to take whacks at all sides for being just as he. (I think he suffers from an intense form of Post Vatican 2 guilt compounded by ADD).
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 04:03 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
I will be the first to admit that I don't know squat about geology; but I operate far above the level of moron. I understand that things are not judged profound by their complexity, nor must they be complex to be profound. Well, the Bible is not a scientific treatise. It was not written for an intellectual priesthood to dominate the unsophisticated.


There seems to be a bit o bitterness there, howcome?

Darwin flunked out opf med school cause he hated blood and was a bit ADD (my take), he didnt make it as a country parson cause he was too much interested in bugs. He grew into his life's work as a trained amateur because he was independently wealthy and could afford the time to dither AND he was curious. He came up with something that was devoured by common people just like the work of Chambers Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation (R Chambers was originally an anti "transformationalist" until he too was trying to answer some of the more perplexing questions about life on earth). Darwin was a real pussy so he watched and waited to see how Chambers was villified by the Anglican clergy and , if Darwin wasnt almost cheated of the honor of "first discovery" he may not have published his work for another few decades (or not at all some scholars say). But, hardly written for any priesthood (religious or otherwise) Darwin's and Chambers books flew off the shelves because the common folk wanted to understand these arguments


Maybe yoiur belief in priesthoods is more based upon our failing ed system.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 05:25 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:
. . . It doesn't take a lot of technical knowledge to recognize the validity of evolution, it's pretty freaking obvious when you get right down to it.
Natural selection in the form of adaptation is obvious. Labeling it 'micro evolution' seems to be an attempt to sell the big leap. If there's a 'micro', then surely there must be a 'macro', right? BZZZT!

I have admiration for the academic level of Farmer and Set. I attempt to elicit responses from them in order to examine and hone my own beliefs. That does not imply that I accept their conclusions as correct. I'm smart enough in my own right, yet would readily admit to (most of) the huge amount of godawful intellectual errors I have made in 70+ years. Brainpower and $1.75 will buy a cup of coffee in most places.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 05:31 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
That's a poor choice of words on your part. The number one definition of axiom in a google search reads: A statement or proposition that is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true. The beginning of the definition at Wikipedia reads: An axiom, or postulate, is a premise or starting point of reasoning. As classically conceived, an axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy. The word comes from the Greek ἀξίωμα 'that which is thought worthy or fit,' or 'that which commends itself as evident.

Your big sky daddy is not self-evident, and there is no evidence for your bible fairy tales. You can hardly call your position one which is based on axioms. That you stipulate your big sky daddy and special creations is understood. It is not axiomatic.
In many places my axioms are regarded as self evident. But in neither your case nor mine can conclusions derived from said axioms be guaranteed accurate.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 06:31 pm
Appealing to others who share the same self-delusions is not an exercise in evidence gathering. The only axiom i have with regard to a theory of evolution is that evidence-based, naturalistic scientific investigation is a reliable method. You continue to pretend that believing without any evidence and accepting the conclusion of evidence-based investigation are equivalent. They are not.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 06:38 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Appealing to others who share the same self-delusions is not an exercise in evidence gathering.
I agree with you (and ehBeth)
Setanta wrote:
The only axiom i have with regard to a theory of evolution is that evidence-based, naturalistic scientific investigation is a reliable method. You continue to pretend that believing without any evidence and accepting the conclusion of evidence-based investigation are equivalent. They are not.
What I offer as evidence cannot be held in one's hand, nor can a flatus. Yet it is still evident.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 07:55 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
. . . It doesn't take a lot of technical knowledge to recognize the validity of evolution, it's pretty freaking obvious when you get right down to it.
Natural selection in the form of adaptation is obvious.

The interconnected nature of all life on the planet is obvious as is decent from common ancestors.
neologist wrote:
Labeling it 'micro evolution' seems to be an attempt to sell the big leap.

It's not. Science doesn't even talk about micro versus macro evolution, that's a purely Creationist invention. So if anyone is trying to "sell" an idea there, it's the Creationists (and you've obviously bought it).
neologist wrote:
If there's a 'micro', then surely there must be a 'macro', right? BZZZT!

It's clear that you've fallen for their bullshit and you also demonstrated that you don't understand evolution well enough to see through it.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 09:33 pm
@rosborne979,
From Wikipedia:
Quote:
. . . Microevolution over time may lead to speciation or the appearance of novel structure, sometimes classified as macroevolution.[2] Contrary to claims by creationists however, macro and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales.[2][3]
Contrast with Macroevolution
Microevolution can be contrasted with macroevolution, which is the occurrence of large-scale changes in gene frequencies in a population over a geological time period (i.e. consisting of extended microevolution). The difference is largely one of approach. Microevolution is reductionist, but macroevolution is holistic. Each approach offers different insights into the evolution process. Macroevolution can be seen as the sum of long periods of microevolution, and thus the two are qualitatively identical while being quantitatively different.
(red color mine) I don't see this being labeled a creationist invention. It's an evolutionist invention appropriately nailed by creationists, a group with whom I claim no affiliation. BTW. I first learned of it in Scientific American
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 11:02 pm
@neologist,
Micoevolution was a term, invented by Paul Ehrlich(not the magic bullet guy) along with macroevolution, that stated the processes of volution that could reasonbly occur within a popu;ation over two time series.Micro , being observd in a generation or two as modifications within adaption. Macro was that which could only be seen over geological time. The Creationists hve GLOMMED on the terms and , like neo, will stipulate to micorevloution but deny macroevolution. Since the mechanism is pretty much the samein affecting each's results, it pretty much shows the ignorance of the Creationists. They stipulate to gene flow,adaptive radiation, convergent and divergent changes,but only thse they can see over a few generations. Their biggest argument has been "Well you havent been there to see macroevolution", as if we can magically change our life spans. SInce adaptation and macroevolutionary changes can most easily be seen from results of biogeographical changes(such as island isolation or cave isolation ), or in the case of Nile Cichlids we know what thes fish looked like in the Nile and we know when a population was isolated ith the geological formation of a lake, and then we see that all the cichlids in that lake(less than 40000 years after their isolation) have turned into all sorts of new forms and developed new habits ( including becoming carnivores )

Now that we pretty much understand the mechanisms of the gene , we can watch the changes that occur in gene frequency and we can further see the development of genera over generations as long as we can sample DNA from some of the foundation spcies.
How does a Creationist explain the differences and alignment of genes between chimps and humans (like the alignment and fusion of 2 chimp chromosomes to form human chromosome 2) The work of Jorge Yunis and Om Prakash solved the similarities of genomes among the great apes and humans.

It seems that the genetic differences among all the great apes are greater than the differences betwen chimps and humans, yet even the Creationists stipulate to similarity in forms among the" big monkeys''.



neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2013 11:18 pm
@farmerman,
So I'm a GLOMMER, eh? Well.I've been called worse things. Look, I wasn't there when Adam and Eve cultivated the Garden; I haven't observed the appearance of any specie. I don't take the Bible as science. And, other than having been called a neanderthal, I know little about biological science.

My main reason for being on A2K is to make a clear statement about the Bible's message. I'll try to stay off the evolution threads, except to aggravate you from time to time. Very Happy . I don't mind an occasional 'impact' from you, either.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2013 03:08 am
@neologist,
Something which cannot be examined is not evident--it is not evidence.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2013 04:19 am
@neologist,
deal. Im glad that, you arent a "Hard liner" about what you call evidence , because , as you see, it is a point of much discussion and , like "theory" it has a definite footprint and use in science.

0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2013 04:27 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
I don't see this being labeled a creationist invention. It's an evolutionist invention appropriately nailed by creationists, a group with whom I claim no affiliation. BTW. I first learned of it in Scientific American

The claim by Creationists that Micro and Macro are two different processes, one of which works and the other of which doesn't, is definitely a Creationist invention. An invention which you perpetuate by repetition even though you're not a typical Creationist.

Hopefully you can see what's been done to you here. You've been brainwashed by Creationist arguments because you don't understand evolution well enough to defend yourself against their propaganda. You are reciting their dogma even though you are not strictly one of them. "Free your mind, Neo" Smile
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2013 04:34 am
It's kind of long, but it is entertaining. Funkadelic, "Free your mind and your ass will follow" . . .

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2013 07:59 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Natural selection in the form of adaptation is obvious. Labeling it 'micro evolution' seems to be an attempt to sell the big leap. If there's a 'micro', then surely there must be a 'macro', right? BZZZT!

That's ridiculous neo. Would you argue that I can't count to 1,000,000 by starting with the number 1? Even a 3rd grader would tell you that they could count that high given enough time. Now could they count to 1,000,000,000,000 if they had the time?

Slow changes just like slow increments will eventually result in huge changes or numbers that would seem impossible if you insist we concentrate on the slow change.
 

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