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Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 02:44 pm
Welcome, Jenvan05!

I'm not sure what you mean by "factual information about why 'Under God' should be left in the pledge. Whatever your position is, it will be mostly a value judgment, not a factual judgment. For facts about the pledge, see this Wikipedia article, which contains lots of links to other resources.

For more arguments, you may want to read the Supreme Court Case "Elk Grove Unified School District vs. Newdow", which stirred up the current controversy. You can find resources on this case at FindLaw.com.

Hope that helped

-- Thomas

Good luck with your essay!
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 03:07 pm
Re: New Girl - english report
jenvan05 wrote:
I need some factual type information on why 'Under God' SHOULD be left in our pledge.


I'm not sure I can help you with a "SHOULD" argument JenVan, but welcome to the system anyway Smile


Some posters have suggested that the phrase "Under God" is neutral and does no harm, and therefor does not need to be removed.

Others have claimed that it does not need to be removed because the pledge itself is not a requirement imposed by government, and therefor does not represent an "Establishment" of religion.

Neither of these arguments say that it SHOULD be there, but rather that it does not need to be removed. I think this is basically the "don't waste my time worrying about two little words in a voluntary pledge" argument.

To argue that "Under God" SHOULD be in the pledge would seem to undermine the "Neutrality" argument, which is the most common.

All that having been said... To me, the first argument seems disingenuous. It's clear that "Under God" is not a neutral statement, otherwise it wouldn't have been put there in the first place.

The second argument ignores the reality of cultural pressures imposed on young minds in public institutions, and again tries to claim that the environment in which the pledge is presented is neutral, and that any child can "opt out". But Opting out of things is sometimes difficult for adults, much less children who are trying to fit in to the surroundings their parents send them to.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 04:40 pm
Rosborne's post is very accurate in my opinion. I don't think it would be possible to prove it should be there. You would have to resort to religion, obviously, and would therefor have to PROVE religion, and religion is not considered proven, nor can it be accepted as proven formally (only personally). I am a religious person, and I think that if everyone were religous then it SHOULD be there, but not everyone is religous.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 07:25 pm
I would suggest checking on the justification that was used to put "under God" there in the first place. Seeing that it was not that long ago (1954), that info should be easily atainable.
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chemsoldier1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 09:56 am
Take it out, leave it in, makes little difference to me
I dont think the inclusion of "under God" is terribly important either way. I have been saying the pledge for years (and went to Sunday school and all that) and grew up to be a ragin Atheist.
I do not want the pledge to be abolished all together though. Call me a cheese dick but the pledge and national anthem still mean something to me, even though I do not believe in god.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:01 pm
Resurrecting a dead thread, maybe putting it on a different track, maybe not.

I don't object to the inclusion of the phrase "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance -- which, perhaps, I should capitalized, it being a unique, institutional identity.

What I object to is the Pledge Of Allegiance itself.

( ( Hmmm, maybe POA is sufficiently abstract to de- or re-politicize something. ) )

I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republic
For which it stands
One nation
(Under God)
Indivisible
With liberty and justice for all



Take a fresh look at it if you haven't thought about it in a while, so as not just to bring up the feelings you had about it as a child, which are irrelevant. You were only a child.

I mean, it's a nice promise and all, but has it really been fulfilled? Can we really fulfill it? Is it too much to expect from a six-year-old?






And is this part...

Indivisible

...really even desireable?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:20 pm
Ugh, I now teach ina school and if I get caught in the gym to meet and bring the kids to class, I have to say the pledge. I just leave out the under god bit.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:25 pm
Pdawg - yeah, the whole thing stinks.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:32 pm
I believe they should take "under God" out of the pledge, and instead insert the following:
"full of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Scientologists and atheists . . ."
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:33 pm
The beginning of ...And Justice For All (old Pacino movie) there's a voiceover of different individual kids saying the POA.

(USRDA of POA is 1 recitation, per oral, every day not reserved for leisure, physical labor, or worship.)
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:42 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
I believe they should take "under God" out of the pledge, and instead insert the following:
"full of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Scientologists and atheists . . ."


Inferring that the mechnistic arm of the state has any purview over this avenue of self-identification/acculturation -- especially when recitation of the POA is one of the most fundamentally invasive (at least in terms of its breadth of influence) things the government does -- suggests that the government cares what religion you are, even though they assure you, "But that's perfectly cool with us!"

If we believe... ( ( deep down in our child-born subconscious, if for no other reason than we said it in ranks several thousand times ) ) ... that the state cares what our religion is, they might someday resent or actively persecute us regarding religious matters.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:50 pm
or, they might say, one nation, regardless of who the hell you are . . .
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:54 pm
That I like. Maybe it should be rewritten.

I pledge awareness
Of the flag
Of the United States of America;
And of the republic
For which it stands
Usually one nation
Regardless of who the hell you are
Divisible upon itself
With a tolerable-to-excessive standard of living for most.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 08:58 pm
<giggle>
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