Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance

I suppose that would be classier.

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Joe Nation wrote:

Or we can drop the 'with' and replace it with 'and someday'.

Nah, how 'bout we leave it as "with liberty and justice for all", but think of it as a vision for what *should* be, rathen than a definition of what *is*.

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And we should leave a belief of God inside, as a vision of what should be among americans, rather than what is.

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I agree with those who say to drop the pledge altogether. McCarthy's dead; so should that type of paranoia be.

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SCoates wrote:

And we should leave a belief of God inside, as a vision of what should be among americans, rather than what is.

I see a big difference between a vision of liberty and justice for all, and a vision of God.

Your statement is the best evidence yet for why the phrase "Under God" is unconstitutional in its current context, and should be removed from the pledge.

I can think of no better example than to realize that the phrase "under God" implies a vision of a belief in a God. And that such a vision, when promoted by any government institution is in direct conflict with the basic principle of separation of church and state.

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Where in the Constitution is anything that forbids references to God anywhere? The Constitution says the government cannot require us to be religious and it also allows us to be as religious as we want to be however we want to be religious.

I am old enough to remember when "under God" was not part of the Pledge of Allegience and it was fine then. I would have no objection if it was dropped now out of respect for those few who do not believe in a supreme being. But if we drop it, let's drop it for reasons of respect and leave the Constitution out of it.

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Foxfrye:
It's the First Amendment to the US Constitution:

Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The battles have been over what "the establishment clause" means to mean. Literalists like to think it means a particular religion like Catholicism, but Generalists tend to think it means just about any recognition of a belief in the supernatural.

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There is nothihg in the first amendment referencing the Pledge of Allegience; otherwise the exact wording of the amendment only underscores and affirms my previous post.

I don't have any problem with the phrase 'under God' in the Pledge and I won't have any problem if they drop it out of respect for those who don't believe in a diety. I am only saying that the Constititution forbids the establishment of state religion, but it does not forbid the use of God or any other religious word or phrase anywhere. If anything it supports the right of people to be religious however and wherever they choose so long as they do so peacefully.

Law created by our courts, of course, is something else again. But the propriety of that is a whole different subject. Smile

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Foxfyre, the words "under God" were added to the Pledge of Allegiance by an act of Congress in 1954.

Saying the new Pledge was made mandatory in many schools and was customary at the beginning of some public events and governmental functions.

That had the effect of establishing a state religion since the "God" referred to in the Pledge was the Judeo-Christian God and not Allah, Odin, Krishna, Native American spirits, folk gods, or any Goddess. It excludes atheists, Taoists and Buddhists who do not believe in a God.

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fishin' wrote:

There have been a lot of arguments put forth for why the pledge shouldn't be said or should be changed back but this one is the weakest I've ever seen. There is no way the pledge could be seen as any sort of "religious test" nor is anyone bound by law to recite it as a condition of office.

If the Pledge was not meant to be a religious test to distinguish Good Americans from Godless Pinko Commies, why were the words "under God" added in the first place?

Why should school children or anyone NOT in a position of public trust be asked to affirm their allegiance to the United States? Did Congress suspect that elementary school children were cooking up a conspiracy to overthrow the government, or what?

Government officials around here are indeed expected, if not required, to recite the Pledge at the beginning of sessions.

BTW, I was surprised to find that an oath I had to take in 2002 ended "so help me God." I stated my reason for omitting that phrase during the swearing in and crossed out that line on the written copy I signed since it conflicted with the Constitution that I am supposed to uphold and defend. No one else was aware of the discrepancy.

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"God" could mean Allah, or Odin, or Zeus, or so forth. But it obviously wasn't meant to if I may say so, and I do have to agree with you on the rest of your points.

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I understand why government officials might be required to pledge.

Do they still make you swear on the bible in court? Is it an option if you want to? And so forth...

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Terry writes:

Quote:

Foxfyre, the words "under God" were added to the Pledge of Allegiance by an act of Congress in 1954.

Saying the new Pledge was made mandatory in many schools and was customary at the beginning of some public events and governmental functions.

That had the effect of establishing a state religion since the "God" referred to in the Pledge was the Judeo-Christian God and not Allah, Odin, Krishna, Native American spirits, folk gods, or any Goddess. It excludes atheists, Taoists and Buddhists who do not believe in a God.

To you, the phrase 'under God' may refer to the Judeo-Christian God, but to others it may invoke a whole different image. The Pledge itself does not specify nor does it require any manner of belief or adherence to any religious practice. For that reason it does not 'establish religion' in any way, shape, or form; in fact, to forbid the phrase might go against the First Amendment as denying a lawful religious exercise.

Could the Pledge be used by an unscrupulous teacher to attempt to coerce children into being religious? Possibly and if that should happen I would be leading the pack to condemn that. In all my years of school or when raising my own children, I never once saw it used that way however.

Again, out of respect for the very small minority who do not believe in a supreme being or diety, I would have no problem with the phrase being dropped from the Pledge by those who do not want to say it. And I have no problem if people are encouraged to substitute Allah or Buddha or whomever in place of "God".

I have a huge problem with the notion that the Pledge somehow violates the U.S. Constitution however.

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Foxfyre wrote:

The Pledge itself does not specify nor does it require any manner of belief or adherence to any religious practice.

Yes it does. To make someone pledge allegience to "one nation under God" definitely associates the concept of God with the nation you are pledging allegience to. And the government of the United States is not allowed to assert or promote such an association of state and religion.

Those of us who do not believe in any God have the right (in this country at least), not to have our public schools encourage our children to pledge their allegience to a religious concept which we do not share.

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Kids in Texas schools follow the standard Pledge with a Pledge to the Texas Flag:

"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible."

Personally, I stopped saying the "under god" at some point in high school. My own little moment of silence.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I would have no problem with the phrase being dropped from the Pledge by those who do not want to say it.

People already choose to forego expressing those words if they choose. However, the fact that this pledge is promoted in this form in a school and to small impressionable children (who may not be comfortable deviating from the authority, or their peers), makes it a problem by design, whether or not some children choose to bypass it.

Foxfyre wrote:

I have a huge problem with the notion that the Pledge somehow violates the U.S. Constitution however.

In its current form, I believe that it does violate the intent of the first ammendment of the constitution. With the words "under God" removed, it would no longer violate the constitution.

The solution is simple: Remove the words.

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The pledge of allegiance was a big part of my education.

Like many here, I refused to say the pledge in high school. I was opposed to the fact it was a meaningless ritual more than the "under god" specifically.

I was yelled at by classmates and sent to the office. However, I stood my ground. In the end the administration had to back down. We ended up with about half of my homeroom sitting down for the pledge each day.

I would not give up this experience for anything. The fact that I could stand by my principles and eventually my rights prevailed.

This greatly increased my patriotism.

I hope that kids today don't miss out on the chance to learn about what America really means by defying this useless pledge - god or no god.

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ebrown_p wrote:

... I hope that kids today don't miss out on the chance to learn about what America really means by defying this useless pledge - god or no god.

Despite the valuable lessons which can be learned, children shouldn't have to fight our battles for us. Adults need to fight for what America stands for as well, we can't just leave an injustice in place as a learning experience for our kids.

Politicians and idealogues from the 50's created this problem, and others in society at that time failed to prevent the damage. Now we are here again. Now it's time to see just how well the lessons of our youth were learned.

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(For the record, I intended that quote to be precisely one-half tongue in cheek.)

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ebrown_p wrote:

(For the record, I intended that quote to be precisely one-half tongue in cheek.)

Sorry, I don't mean to lack a sense of humor. I just think this is a pretty important issue, which sometimes gets dismissed because people worry less about the principle of things than they do about day to day activities.

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Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance

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