Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance

Setanta wrote:

That is as equally disingenuous as your "ten commandments" claptrap. When you propose that it is reasonable to post that nonsense in schools, you are advocating the imposition of a set of beliefs on schoolchildren, the most impressionable among us. I didn't object to your statment of your opinion, i simply disagreed with vociferouly and with a great deal of self-evident contempt. Your argument is feeble and guileful--i have as much right to contend from what you've just written that you are telling me it is inappropriate for me to express my opinion as you do to make that ridiculous accusation of me. Your martyr ploy here is laughable.

Nope. I'm just telling you that if you can't make your case without attacking/trashing me, I have to figure I have the edge in this one. Smile

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I didn't attack or trash you, which is, of course, the alleged substance of your martyr ploy. I attacked your ideas, not you.

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No need to fight. I think we, right here on A2K, have come up with a real solution-- The compromise that will make everyone happy and cure this rift in society.

We will just use these three commandments (although we may want to use a different term).

Quote:

- Don't murder.
- Don't steal.
- Don't tell lies about people.

These three are reflect our Judeo-christian heritage without violating our Constitution.

I suggest we put this on our money, in our courtrooms and public buildings. We could even have our kids recite this in school each day.

Wow! A real solution. Who says every thread must end with petty arguing.

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patiodog wrote:

Is the pledge compulsive? I honestly don't know. I had a couple of teachers who ignored it, and nothing ever happened.

The pledge is not compulsive. According to Wikipedia, " Central to early challenges were the Jehovah's Witnesses, a Christian denomination whose beliefs preclude swearing loyalty to any power lesser than God. In the 1940 Supreme Court case Minersville School District vs. Gobitis, an 8-1 majority in the Court held that a school district's interest in promoting national unity permitted it to require Witness students to recite the Pledge along with their classmates. Yet three years later in West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette, the Court reversed itself, voting 8-1 to forbid a school from requiring the Pledge."

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Foxfyre wrote:

I do not believe reciting "under God" in the Pledge of allegience constitutes establishment of religion or any kind of requirement to be religious. It might imply a consent to be religious and there is no constitutional provision against that.

The Constitition specifically prohibits religious tests and oaths, and specifically prohibits the establishment of religion by Congress. Where do you get the idea that the founding fathers thought it was OK to be required to consent to religion?

The 9th circuit court does not agree with you about "under God" in the Pledge not establishing a religion:

Quote:

In the context of the Pledge, the statement that the United States is a nation "under God" is an endorsement of religion. It is a profession of a religious belief, namely, a belief in monotheism. The recitation that ours is a nation "under God" is not a mere acknowledgment that many Americans believe in a deity. Nor is it merely descriptive of the undeniable historical significance of religion in the founding of the Republic. Rather, the phrase "one nation under God" in the context of the Pledge is normative. To recite the Pledge is not to describe the United States; instead, it is to swear allegiance to the values for which the flag stands: unity, indivisibility, liberty, justice, and - since 1954 - monotheism. The text of the official Pledge, codified in federal law, impermissibly takes a position with respect to the purely religious question of the existence and identity of God. A profession that we are a nation "under God" is identical, for Establishment Clause purposes, to a profession that we are a nation "under Jesus," a nation "under Vishnu," a nation "under Zeus," or a nation "under no god," because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion. ...

Finally we turn to the Lemon test, the first prong of which asks if the challenged policy has a secular purpose. Historically, the primary purpose of the 1954 Act was to advance religion, in conflict with the first prong of the Lemon test. The federal defendants "do not dispute that the words 'under God' were intended" "to recognize a Supreme Being," at a time when the government was publicly inveighing against atheistic communism. ...

In conclusion, we hold that (1) the 1954 Act adding the words "under God" to the Pledge, and (2) EGUSD's policy and practice of teacher-led recitation of the Pledge, with the added words included, violate the Establishment Clause.

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

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According to Louis C. Rabaut, who proposed the house resolution, the establishment of religion was necessary to counter communism:

Quote:

You may argue from dawn to dusk about differing political, economic, and social systems, but the fundamental issue which is the unbridgeable gap between America and Communist Russia is a belief in Almighty God. From the root of atheism stems the evil weed of communism and its branches of materialism and political dictatorship. Unless we are willing to affirm our belief in the existence of God and His creator-creature relation to man, we drop man himself to the significance of a grain of sand and open the floodgates to tyranny and oppression.

And as President Eisenhower stated, the real purpose of adding "under God" to the Pledge was to establish a national religion:

Quote:

From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.

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Foxfyre wrote:

No. 1 - Put the most important first.
No. 2 - Don't put your faith in lifeless things.
No. 3 - Watch your mouth.
No. 4 - A day of rest is a good thing.
No. 5 - Respect your elders.
No. 6 - Don't murder.
No. 7 - Sleep with your own wife.
No. 8 - Don't steal.
No. 9 - Don't tell lies about people.
No. 10 - Don't be jealous of your neighbor.

This is against the American way of life? Not where I come from.

Nice, but these are NOT the 10 Commandments.

Protestant short version:

I am the Lord they God
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy
5. Honor thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness
10. Thou shalt not covet

The Catholic version omits the prohibition against worshipping graven images and splits the last one into 2 parts:

1. I AM the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember thou keep holy the Lord's Day.
4. Honor thy father and mother.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

The Bible goes into a little more detail about the religious aspects in Exodus 20 (NIV):

1 And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

As ebrown and Setanta said, the 10 C's do not belong in schools.

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Here is my version of Rules to Live By:

1. Tolerate others' beliefs as long as they don't hurt anyone
2. Examine your own beliefs, and do not worship anything unworthy of worship.
3. Do not use language offensive to your listeners.
4. Eat right, exercise, and get plenty of rest.
5. Do not physically or mentally abuse your spouse, your kids or your parents.
6. Do not murder.
7. If you make a commitment to someone, keep it in letter and in spirit.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie, or through your silence allow injustice.
10. Pay your taxes, vote, and uphold the laws or change them.
11. Do not act irresponsibly and become a burden to others.
12. Love you family, love your friends, and at least be polite to everyone else.
13. Do not cause unnecessary pain.
14. Live such that the world is better place for you having been here.

And finally,

15. Teach children to think, don't just give them a list of rules.

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If we have to make school children say a pledge, how about one that is more appropriate:

I pledge to be a good citizen of my school, my community, and my country
to learn about our history and government
to respect the rights of others and stand up for my own
to be kind, honest, and diligent in my efforts
to prepare myself for responsible adulthood
and do my best to make the world a better place for all.

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I consdier your proposed "rules" and "pledge" to be well-though-out, Terry. Good job.

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Terry wrote:

The Constitition specifically prohibits religious tests and oaths, and specifically prohibits the establishment of religion by Congress.

This argument didn't hold on page one and it still doesn't hold here.

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Nice pledge, Terry! With your permission, I'd add "and to never recite pledges just because everybody else recites them, or because the teacher wants me to do it."

As to the actual pledge under discussion, I'd prefer it if "under god" was removed. But I think the actual rights infringement is so tiny in practice that it should be off the constitution's radar screen. The same goes for "In god we trust" on coins, where I prefer 'E pluribus unum', and for singing "God bless America" in public settings.

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Pledging to a piece of cloth is silly.

Pledging to a "republic" is empty (how many people can explain what a "republic" is as opposed to a democracy).

My Pledge goes like tihs.

I Pledge allegiance to one nation with liberty and justice for all.
Amen.

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Yes it is a very nice pledge and one I would be happy for my children to say. But it also sidesteps the real issue here as to whether a reference to God in the Pledge of Allegience violates the U.S. Constitution. I feel strongly that to forbid school children to say 'under God' is a violation of the First Amendment while the phrase 'under God' is in no way an establishment of religion, no requirement for one to adhere to any particular faith, no demand for one to be religious in any way.

Just because some think that Judaism or Christianity or any other religious faith is "superstitious claptrap", it does not follow that children are in any way harmed by the phrase in the pledge. It would be different if the phrase was "one nation under God of the Jews or God of the Christians".

I maintain it is wrong and harmful and unconstitutional to forbid children to appropriately express a religious belief. At the same time, I again would have no problem if the phrase "under God" was dropped from the pledge out of respect for those who in good conscience cannot say it.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I maintain it is wrong and harmful and unconstitutional to forbid children to appropriately express a religious belief. At the same time, I again would have no problem if the phrase "under God" was dropped from the pledge out of respect for those who in good conscience cannot say it.

This is an exaggeration. No one here is saying we should "forbid children to appropriately express a religious belief". You are right-- that would be harmful and unconstitutional. But, no one is saying that here.

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Once again: children are the most impressionable members of our society; when they attend schools, they do so in the belief, encouraged by the adults with whom they have social intercourse, that this is the place they go to learn the truth; requiring children to make a statement each day which explicitly acknowledges the existence of a deity (and therefore implicityly denies the existence of more than one god, and implicitly contradicts the possible teaching of their parents that there are no gods) in such a setting is tantamount to teaching that god exists, and has a proximate relationship with the republic of which they are citizens. This constitutes a very good working definition of a religious establishment--as such, it violates the first amendment.

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Setanta wrote:

Once again: children are the most impressionable members of our society; when they attend schools, they do so in the belief, encouraged by the adults with whom they have social intercourse, that this is the place they go to learn the truth; requiring children to make a statement each day which explicitly acknowledges the existence of a deity (and therefore implicityly denies the existence of more than one god, and implicitly contradicts the possible teaching of their parents that there are no gods) in such a setting is tantamount to teaching that god exists, and has a proximate relationship with the republic of which they are citizens. This constitutes a very good working definition of a religious establishment--as such, it violates the first amendment.

Excellent commentary.

Allow me a loud AMEN!

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I think the question is whether or not the pledge of alliegance is considered the property of the federal government. I think it is the property of the people of the United States, so the government should not legally change the lyrics.

On a side note: the word "g-d" was added long after the pledge of alliegence was written, so I see nothing wrong with taking it out. I think it was added to allow a president to bolser religious votes in an election.

The problem comes - not from the song - but from the routine speaking of it in public (government owned) schools. The easy solution is: not making kids say the pledge - or those kids/ the schools omitting the word g-d for their daily speech.

I don't consider this a huge issue. Something which I think needs to be changed is the swearing on the bible in courthouses.

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Portal Star wrote:

Something which I think needs to be changed is the swearing on the bible in courthouses.

I don't believe that a "bible swearing" is required in courts any more. I think they simply ask you to "swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth"; no bible, and no "so help me God".

I could be mistaken on this point however. Maybe Setanta can confirm/correct me on this.

Thanks,

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As i understand it, one is no longer required to place one's hand on a bible and swear to god--that is not, however, an "expert" statement. There has always been the option of making an affirmation, because a great many religious people are offending by the notion of swearing to god, or taking an oath of any description.

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Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance

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