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How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 21 Mar, 2019 03:35 pm
@Leadfoot,
do you think that double or triple bonded carbon compounds are instruction dependent?

How about hydro cyanic acid

How about fatty acid polymers?

How about maleonitrile polymers?
How bout purines and pyrimidines

Who, weve come to the doorsteps of several amino acids.
SInce all the above need instructions, it means that the environments that produce them are unique too?

Ya know where were goin?

Does that mean, by your ways of thinking, that everything that preceded biology doesnt require instructions,
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 22 Mar, 2019 10:10 am
@coluber2001,
Quote:
An axiom of fundamentalists is that nature is stupid, with the exception, perhaps, of fundamentalist Buddhists. And I'm not even sure of that.

I thought they'd say something like 'Nature and the heavens proclaim His glory so that none should have excuse for their ignorance.' or words to that effect.

But for the sake of argument let's say your meme is true.
You should tell farmer that because he often alludes that all my posts are motivated by fundamentalist beliefs. With all the ID in Nature (in my view), how could I possibly be a fundamentalist?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 22 Mar, 2019 10:16 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
...if you don't behave farma is going to code you back to a turtle!
The funny thing is, science says that is literally possible, if you started early enough. And by changing a batch of subroutines here and there, all my kids could be too.

The really funny thing is that you thought you were poking fun.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 22 Mar, 2019 10:37 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Does that mean, by your ways of thinking, that everything that preceded biology doesnt require instructions,

Of course not.
Do you want to switch over to cosmology/fine tuning/etc.? But that required design in a totally different realm. You have tried to mix them up a bit with your double helix minerals and such, but it really is a different realm. Chemistry can do its thing totally independently of biological design, it does not need life. Take a look anywhere outside of Earth for examples. Or inside a can of beans for that matter, once the instructions are stopped, there is nothing but chemistry going on there and not much of that, even with all the right ingredients.

Chemistry and life only mix at the level of simple chemical reaction, but the difference between them is like that between a forest fire and a car engine. Both are heat engines running on the energy of oxidizing hydrocarbons, but one is the result of entirely natural processes. No one would ever mistake the engine as anything but 'designed'.

This greatly understates the difference between chemistry and 'life'. There is no software in chemistry, only hardware defined constants that you can't change. OTOH, we can now reprogram biological life at will (to the limited extent that we have mastered the software).

The mind boggles at how obvious this design in biology is and how strenuously it is resisted. I guess it has always been this way in science.
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 22 Mar, 2019 11:01 am
@Leadfoot,
but biology cannot do without chemistry, and theres nothing secret about how chemistry of life works, nor is there any compelling evidence that it must be "scripted or coded" as you guys assert. I believe that somewhere you got stuck on an analogy and never bothered to go any further. Oh well, whatever rows your boat, just dont try to hustle your belief in our public schools .
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 22 Mar, 2019 11:17 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Who, weve come to the doorsteps of several amino acids.
SInce all the above need instructions, it means that the environments that produce them are unique too?

Ya know where were goin?

Holy **** farmer, did you get religion! ? Yeah! an environment with intelligence!

Just kid'n. But do you really think any conceivable environmental sequence can arrange those amino acids in the required order? I could more easily envision my car as a result. A Volcano at just the right place to refine some iron, it eventually runs down into quarter panel shaped depressions made by glacier movement, tectonic plate movements slowly bring them together, along with bison hides preserved in a previous ice age for the leather seats.

The process would fail many times but with 3 billion years and enough environmental shifts, eventually we get a BMW M240i with the optional limited slip differential. The moon roof gene was lost somewhere along its evolutionary path, but that is fortuitous because it lowers the curb weight and CG.

Of course there were earlier simpler autos produced, Escorts, Mazda compacts, weird exotics with rotary engines, but eventually we reached the pinnacle of design - the Ultimate Driving Machine. The forces of natural selection eventually eliminated all but the mighty BMW brand from some environmental niches, but in their natural setting on the track, they reign supreme at the pinnacle of evolution.

Which pretty much describes us too. We ultimately drive what we believe, what to give our energy to. They say we even drive the climate.

I'm gonn'a go prep the bimmer for a track day tomorrow and burn as much hydrocarbon as fast as possible. The driver will get by on a PB&J sandwich in a brown paper sack. Biological designs are a lot more efficient than even the most evolved automotive life forms.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Mar, 2019 05:40 am
@Leadfoot,
Your insistence at using industrial analogies is , of course, charming, but wrongedy wrong wrong. A senior in organic chemistry could recite the chains of events and environments that lead from Hydrocyanic acid, water and heat to stuff like dinitriles , ribonucleic acids , purines pyrimidines and RNA . All these can be produced in natural environments without labware.
Early life was more like round rocks rolling down a slope, not a Nova engine (the hardest thing for nature to assemble was somehow depositing and then rounding th rocks an then getting them in a high topographic point so they could roll down a slope). It demonstrated properties collectively exclusive to life but individually not unique to life.
I still say youve gotta read much more biochemistry for understanding before youre able to intelligently dismiss self-organization of organic compounds , polymers and molecular engines.

There are several hundred compounds of double nd triple bonded carbon that duplicate crystal structures of helices and are repeatable with unique crystal terminations with phosphate salts. All these only occur at the steam vent mouth of old coal mine adites where spontaneous combustion has cause mine fires. These complex organic minerals are purines and pyrimidines with excess phosphoric and sulfitic compounds and ONLY occur in these unique environments that had never occured before coal mines opened the subsurface up to the atmosphere.

This is all a separate but interesting subject than evolution. Evolution is well documented as an adaptive or populational driven sequence of change to life on arth. "following rules of intelligent design" is , to me, not revealed at all, its a worldview not an evidence driven theory.
Creation of life, as a first event that separates biology from everything else, is still a process of much study and debate. Id rather this not be worldview driven either. Its hard to explain when the investigations are hard underway.
F I were you though, I would try to keep my mind more open.


YOU claim the same "worldview" infects my thinking too. That may be true but its only because Ive seen nothing other than stuff like your "Reverend Paley argument," your " Our Non presecence at birth pecludes us from understanding anything" or the ever loving,"life is too complicated to have been done without a esigner"


Id listen if some evidence were available to at least make me stop and reassess my own "worldview"





Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 24 Mar, 2019 06:23 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Your insistence at using industrial analogies is , of course, charming, but wrongedy wrong wrong. A senior in organic chemistry could recite the chains of events and environments that lead from Hydrocyanic acid, water and heat to stuff like dinitriles , ribonucleic acids , purines pyrimidines and RNA . All these can be produced in natural environments without labware.

In the required order farmer, in the right order.
I've never denied your chemistry, but you have to account for the order. Unless you what to thank 'chance' and then we can get into statistical analysis if you want to steer clear of 'world views'.

Quote:
Early life was more like round rocks rolling down a slope, not a Nova engine (the hardest thing for nature to assemble was somehow depositing and then rounding th rocks an then getting them in a high topographic point so they could roll down a slope). It demonstrated properties collectively exclusive to life but individually not unique to life.

Ah, the secret of life revealed by Mick Jagger, who knew!

And I want to see those rocks rolling uphill too.
In descending order of size, naturally.

Quote:
I still say youve gotta read much more biochemistry for understanding before youre able to intelligently dismiss self-organization of organic compounds , polymers and molecular engines.

I haven't stopped doing that, but you must understand that it was just that that convinced me of intelligent design. I understand the chemistry and I know it does not account for the encoded information nor the mechanisms running it. The more I read, the more convinced I get.

But you have yet to explain the organization required. I've granted your chemistry, now explain the order.

Cost me 2 sets of Michelin Pilot super sport tires but yesterday I finally mastered the M240 without any of the nannies on! So Satisfying!
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 24 Mar, 2019 06:46 am
@farmerman,
This is from Wikipedia but notice what biochemistry IS. It does not happen without Life and life does not happen without 'information flow'.
Quote:
Biochemistry

Biochemistry, sometimes called biological chemistry, is the study of chemical processes within and relating to living organisms. By controlling information flow through biochemical signaling and the flow of chemical energy through metabolism, biochemical processes give rise to the complexity of life.


It's from Wiki, so of course there is the self contradictory bit about 'biochemical processes' giving rise to 'the complexity of life'. (!)

When will you face the music and admit how completely circular this thinking is?
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  0  
Sun 24 Mar, 2019 11:10 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Early life was more like round rocks rolling down a slope, not a Nova engine (the hardest thing for nature to assemble was somehow depositing and then rounding th rocks an then getting them in a high topographic point so they could roll down a slope). It demonstrated properties collectively exclusive to life but individually not unique to life.


It is the hardest thing. So how do you explain it?

Are you suggesting gravity caused enough pressure before the Big Bang to cause an explosion of inflation that cooled down the universe enough to allow quantum wave disturbances to spontaneously condense into matter and this put your analogous rocks on top of their analogous slopes and provided the analogous paths to life for your analogous rocks to roll down?
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  2  
Sun 31 Mar, 2019 11:30 am
"How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?"

Are scientists anti-religious?
I can't believe that any natural scientist, or biologist could be so knowledgeable that his knowledge precludes
a strong sense of awe at the mystery of life. That mystery itself in a very basic sense is the definition of religion. I would think that the more knowledgeable you are, the more amazed you are. But I think that definition of religion may be beyond the ken of a fundamentalist.
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 31 Mar, 2019 03:23 pm
@coluber2001,
The fact that the universe may appear 'mysterious' or 'awesome' to some scientists is different from a belief in a a directed or purposeful 'creation process' forming the basis of a 'religion'. In any case, the argument for the 'wrongfulness' of that basis for religious belief rests on opinions as to what constitutes 'evidence' for 'a creation process' and has no resolution. That is why I argue that the 'wrongfulness' of religion can only be judged on the pernicious social consequences of holding religious beliefs and not on any concept of 'scientific evidence.'
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 31 Mar, 2019 04:54 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
That is why I argue that the 'wrongfulness' of religion can only be judged on the pernicious social consequences of holding religious beliefs and not on any concept of 'scientific evidence.'


Maybe we should also apply that to atheism and it's effects on various societies like that of Stalin's Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia and Mao's 'cultural revolution' or even today's China where they are systematically crushing any non state approved religion (or anything else deemed detrimental to society).

1984 anyone?
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 31 Mar, 2019 06:31 pm
@Leadfoot,
Totally illogical. Despotic regimes which call themseves 'atheistic' are merely replacing one 'big rule giver' with another. Absolutism of all flavours lays claim to social 'Truth'. Sheep produce shepherds.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Sun 31 Mar, 2019 08:30 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Totally illogical. Despotic regimes which call themseves 'atheistic' are merely replacing one 'big rule giver' with another. Absolutism of all flavours lays claim to social 'Truth'. Sheep produce shepherds.


So are you promoting anarchy?

Or maybe a pure democracy? (hopefully you don't have some characteristics that offend the majority though)
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 1 Apr, 2019 06:07 am
@fresco,
Quote:
Despotic regimes which call themseves 'atheistic' are merely replacing one 'big rule giver' with another. Absolutism of all flavours lays claim to social 'Truth'. Sheep produce shepherds.

Then who shall enforce the ban on harmful religion?

It sounds like you are advocating for the absolutism of anarchy - which in the realm of moral right and wrong is exactly what we have. This is the Golden Age of anarchy.

You have no shepard unless you freely choose one.
fresco
 
  1  
Mon 1 Apr, 2019 06:56 am
@Leadfoot,
No. I am advocating pluralism of belief systems provided that such systems do not coerce others., or incite them to rebel against democracy. The problem shifts to whether 'coercion' equates to 'indoctrination' of children say, and this points a debate the politics of 'education'and the philosophy of ' parental rights'.
manishsharma12
 
  1  
Mon 1 Apr, 2019 07:00 am
@reasoning logic,
all religions had good in them, a certain degree of truth and rightness.
fresco
 
  1  
Mon 1 Apr, 2019 07:44 am
@manishsharma12,
...and Mussolini got the trains running on time ! Laughing
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Mon 1 Apr, 2019 07:58 am
@manishsharma12,
Good!

Joseph Campbell said, "Every god, every mythology, every religion, is true in this sense: it is true as metaphorical of the human and cosmic mystery."

The problem arises when we take these metaphors literally, and both fundamentalist and atheist do it.
 

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