6
   

"It is stuck firm."

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:30 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:
By the way, when i asked you to forgive me, I was being facetious.


Oh yeah, no **** . . . i understood that part, so i pointed out that there was nothing to forgive to neutralize the sarcasm. You really think i'm an idiot, huh? Or is it just that you're so dazzled by your own erudition?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:33 pm
@Setanta,
Dare I note that you two are off topic.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:35 pm
@JTT,
How many google hits can you get on that?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 04:06 pm
@ehBeth,
If I instruct you in how to do one, do you want to give it a go, Beth? [who pretends to have me on ignore]
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 03:06 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You really think i'm an idiot, huh? Or is it just that you're so dazzled by your own erudition?


Yes, and yes.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 03:16 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
How many google hits can you get on that?


Just yours, Beth, likely thousands. Include Setanta's, the number one whiner about people going off topic when it suits his hypocritical/dishonest ends, well, it boggles the mind.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 03:21 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Beth? [who pretends to have me on ignore]


I scroll past you a lot. I don't think I've ever had you on ignore - or pretended to.

I generally prefer thumbing down to ignoring.

Things could all change if the block function comes into play.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 04:31 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
I scroll past you a lot.


Does that make it easier to live with Set?

Quote:
I generally prefer thumbing down to ignoring.


That's at least as cowardly as ignore.

Quote:
Things could all change if the block function comes into play.


You mean Craven's change to Able2Beacoward.
0 Replies
 
chrisking
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 04:52 am
@farmerman,
Thank you. What you said is quite understandable. Yet it sometimes does confuse us non-native speakers a lot.I know there isn't much difference to natives, but the young students in my class always want a clear answer to such grammatical problems even thought there might not be one at all.
chrisking
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 04:54 am
@JTT,
Pretty clear explanation. Thank you a lot!
0 Replies
 
chrisking
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 04:54 am
@JTT,
I think I can show my students this video clip.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 06:06 am
@chrisking,
chrisking wrote:
the young students in my class always want a clear answer to such grammatical problems even thought there might not be one at all.


There is a thing that teachers know about called the "pedagogical lie". The concept was also named the "lie-to-children" by Terry Pratchett, although it considerably(!) predates him (see e.g. the Buddhist Upaya ("expedient means") & "Plato's Noble Lie".)

A lie-to-children, sometimes referred to as a Wittgenstein's ladder, is a simplification of technical or difficult-to-understand material for consumption by "children", (i.e. anyone in the process of learning about a given topic, regardless of age). It is itself a simplification of certain concepts in the philosophy of science.

To present a full level of complexity to a student or child all at once can be overwhelming. Hence elementary explanations tend to be simple, concise, or simply "wrong" — but in a way that attempts to make the lesson more understandable. Sometimes the lesson can be qualified, for example by claiming "this isn't technically true, but it's easier to understand". In retrospect the first explanation may be easy to understand for its inaccuracies, but it will be replaced with a more sophisticated explanation which is closer to "the truth". This "tender introduction" concept is an important aspect of education.

Such statements are not usually intended as deceptions, and may, in fact, be true to a first approximation or within certain contexts. For example Newtonian mechanics, by modern standards, is factually incorrect, as it fails to take into account relativity or quantum mechanics, but it is still a valuable and valid approximation to those theories in many situations.

The term "Wittgenstein's ladder" stems from proposition number 6.54 in that author's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus which reads:

My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them - as steps - to climb beyond them. He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.

There is a fuzzy boundary between widespread misconceptions versus lies-to-children. One significant difference is that genuine misconceptions are resistant to further instruction, and are often believed firmly (sometimes passionately) by adults. On the other hand, students will easily recognize and discard the lies-to-children as more advanced concepts are acquired. Another significant difference is that a lie-to-children will tend to be an approximation of the truth (e.g., acceleration due to gravity=10 m/s²) while a misconception will often simply be wrong (e.g. tongue taste map, coriolis-in-the-bathtub).


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 05:19 pm
@chrisking,
If you can view the video and they understand, then they are fairly advanced students of English, Chris.
0 Replies
 
 

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