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Amish get 3,7 and 15 years prision for BEARD CUTTING

 
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2013 03:30 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The sentence followed the guidelines. They originally wanted life


That kind of support my opinion that the US justice system is out of control and one of the reasons why at any one points why we have such a large percents of our total population in prison compare to any of the others advance nations on the planet.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 05:36 am
@BillRM,
well, its kind of counter intuitive on your point. The govt is "out of control" because it had guidelines on hate crimes, and it is also "out of control" (according to you), for applying some judicial consideration in making the LEADERS sentence, something lesser.

The religious traditions and symbols of the Amish are sacred to them and, while you dismiss the crime when you compare the severity of the punishment ofr each member, you must remember the symbolism that Amish beards represent. Suppose these vandals had invaded the sacristy of a Catholic Curch and had defiled all the communion as a means to "make a point", or suppose they invaded a sanctuary, stole the Torah and then burned it in front of the synagogue. Those are clearly hate crimes no?




The AMish dont have a lot of visible trappings of their religion (Hell, they dont even have churches and professional clergy) , so those few symbols they do have,(Like maintaining hair length and wearing the bonnet by women and maintaining the beards of married and BAptised men) are the ones they consider as sacred to their "Separatist" religious lifestyles.

Their entire lives are considered a religious practice to them. The jury deliberated, gave their punishment reccomendations, then the judge listened to lawyers from both sides of the case, then he gave a sentencing.
Of course itll be appealed and the guidelines challenged.
SO, insted of demonstrating a "govt out of control" , Im amazed at all the time we invest in such cases to assure that some semblance of justice is delivered.


I guess we will agree to disagree Bill (and HAwkee)
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 06:00 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Suppose these vandals had invaded the sacristy of a Catholic Curch and had defiled all the communion as a means to "make a point", or suppose they invaded a sanctuary, stole the Torah and then burned it in front of the synagogue. Those are clearly hate crimes no?


I would feel the same, that such crimes should not carry such long prison sentences as the point could be make with must shorter sentences and we are insane with the level of punishments we meter out in this nation.

I can not wait to see the sentences that will result when private prisons companies begin lobbying for even longer sentences.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 06:20 am
@BillRM,
as I said, we agree to disagree. Im glad we ppunish hate crimes , but youre missing the point about an "out of control government" when I jut gve you soe highlights of how the sentencin went. If you call that "Out of control" then we have nothing common to discuss.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 08:33 am
@farmerman,
Farmerman the idea that instead of life a 15 years sentence is a break for an older man who is unlikely to live for 15 years in any case and is in fact a life sentence for a crime of cutting people beards should be consider an example of the so call criminal justice system acting in a rational manner is not going to fly.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 02:23 pm
@BillRM,
o , if Im 65 and I commit a second degree murder, I should have my sentence cut by the actual percentage that a sentence on a younger man would cut into his life "Outside of prison"??.

Ill back away cause you have an annoying habit of beating dead horses by just changing whips
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 02:41 pm
@farmerman,
The act of forcing the cutting of people beards that is also involved with their religion believes surely should be punish however repeat however 15 years let alone a life sentence is over the top for such a crime and one hell of a waste of society resources.

Let see that one sentence alone will cost around 600,000 assuming he live for the total 15 years and that is not even figuring the medical care costs for an elderly man that the state is likely to find itself bearing.

Maybe you can not think of better public uses of such funding then keeping an old man in prison for such a misdeed but I sure the hell can think of a million and one better uses for those funds.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 02:44 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:


The act of forcing the cutting of people beards that is also involved with their religion believes surely should be punish however repeat however 15 years let alone a life sentence is over the top for such a crime and one hell of a waste of society resources.
I understand. I understand that you dismiss this as a hate crime warranting guideline punishment. I understand .
What should a 65 year old anti Semite who breaks into Synagogue and steals their Torah and then defaces it, get?
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2013 07:26 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I understand. I understand that you dismiss this as a hate crime warranting guideline punishment. I understand .
What should a 65 year old anti Semite who breaks into Synagogue and steals their Torah and then defaces it, get?


Sorry I feel the same such crimes should be punished by some prison time and a long monitor probation period but not decades in prison as those kind of long prison sentences should be reserve for serous physical violence against persons not symbols be them religion symbols or other symbols.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 05:28 am
@BillRM,
well, we are here listening to you tell us about "Bill's guidelines" for what constitutes reasonable sentencing for kidnapping, violation of civil rights and hate crimes. What, then, is a reasonable sentence , in your mind?
In each intance we have multiple counts of these crimes and sentencing guidelines for each. Mr Mullet was the only one who got the "effective life sentence of 17 years". All the others (who actually did the kidnapping and cutting) got much less.

Mullet had additional counts because he set up the atmosphere of intimidation and violence against members of real Amish sects.

If Mullet is successful in his appeal to get his sentence down to, say, 7 years, his own guidelines should include a requirement that, once he gets out of prison, he is not allowed to have any ongoing contact with other Amish sect members and that hed be living under a restraint order for the rest of his life.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 05:56 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
well, we are here listening to you tell us about "Bill's guidelines" for what constitutes reasonable sentencing for kidnapping, violation of civil rights and hate crimes. What, then, is a reasonable sentence , in your mind?


See the rest of the advance world, all of it, for ideas of what happen to be reasonable sentences for criminal behaviors.

We are all alone in the percents of our citizens behind bars at any given time by a factor of ten or more and the insane lengths of our average sentences for criminal misdeeds.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 06:16 am
@BillRM,
not the point.
The fact that we have so many people behind bars isnt because of sentencing guidelines, its a cultural thing with a tip of the hat to Rousseau.

If you dont care to speculate on what is a reasonable sentence for Mr Mullet, then you should consider the legal basis of what went into the existing sentence, you may learn something unique.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 06:41 am
@farmerman,
I have given my opinion that a few years and then life long monitoring would be more then enough in other postings on this thread.

Next Canada for example have as many criminal convictions as the US by population but far far less insanely harsh sentencing and as a result far less of it population behind bars at any given time.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 08:36 am
@BillRM,
they also have a population 1/10 of ours
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 08:41 am
@BillRM,
maybe that will be the results of the appeals process. I hope not though, I can support the 17 year sentence because its dealing with a Constitutional Right of "Free Expression" and Ciivil Rights , as well as the new definitions of "Hate Crimes"

Remember the issues that went into developing hate crime sentencing was backed by enforcement, police, the judiciary, and most of Congress.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2013 08:51 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
they also have a population 1/10 of ours


By percent of total population my silly friend.

We have the largest percents of our total population behind bars then any other advance nation by far and by a factor on average of ten or more.

In fact I had never hear anyone challenging that fact until you seems to be trying to do so.
0 Replies
 
 

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