19
   

Where is the self? How can dualism stand if it's just a fiction?

 
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 12:41 pm
@igm,
Quote:
…..a way that the 'self' could have the needed characteristics then we can become more confident that there isn't one.
Ig I'm impressed by your tolerance and persistence in the face of so much resistance if not hostility. To save me a day scrolling back through our thread I wonder if you might name those principal characteristics, summarizing the contention entailed by each
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 12:44 pm
@dalehileman,
Seems to me, Dale, you would have been more honest if you had asked igm...

...why are you guessing there is no "self."
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 12:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
but surely it doesn't matter what you believe. as long as you believe in the existence of yourself, no matter how blinkered or skewed that one belief is, you are self aware, no matter what god you follow. i quite like the idea of levels of self awareness mind you, i gotta admit, but every level must have one criterion. self awareness.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 12:51 pm
@Berty McJock,
That's where the oxymoron comes into the picture; we live a skewered existence.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 12:55 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
...why are you guessing there is no "self."
But Frank, what did I say that might lead you to that conclusion
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
yes but broken down to it's most basic, take away all the skewed stuff, and you are left with the existence of yourself, and therefore by extension, your Self.

you simply need to know you exist to be self aware, no matter how you exist, you are self aware at the most basic level.

maybe the real question isn't if Self exists, and how it affects duality, rather how Self exists, and how it affects duality.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:18 pm
@Berty McJock,
Berty McJock wrote:

so how can the Self exist if it's not self aware?

the oxymoron creates a paradox.

Well spotted... that is a relevant question, I'd say! Are you asking Matt? Is it referring to Matt’s recent post?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:21 pm
@Berty McJock,
But the fact is, we can't take away all the skewered stuff. That's part and parcel of our "living" and self-awareness. Nobody has answered my question about religions and gods.

According to the title of this thread, I think self is a conglomeration of many influences, perceptions, and what we believe to be truth; truth is a profusion of confusion even when we think we are self-aware. Not quite fiction, but the self that includes all the human frailties in what we believe to be truth.
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:21 pm
@igm,
it was in response to cicerone, but as you will probably see by the time you read this, it's what i think r.e. the entire thread... as i see it anyway...so far Razz
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Nobody has answered my question about religions and gods.


i did. i said no matter what you believe, as long as you believe in the existence of yourself.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:25 pm
@Berty McJock,
So, in believing in gods, the self has come to believe something that cannot be proven. Self awareness is an oxymoron when it can believe in something that cannot be proved.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:32 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
…..a way that the 'self' could have the needed characteristics then we can become more confident that there isn't one.
Ig I'm impressed by your tolerance and persistence in the face of so much resistance if not hostility. To save me a day scrolling back through our thread I wonder if you might name those principal characteristics, summarizing the contention entailed by each

We're going with Matt's post at the moment... we came to an agreement that it was a 'good place' to start and who knows... finish!

If you scroll up you can’t miss it (apologies if you have already seen it). We agreed that a 'self' would need to be: singular, continuous over time but just during this life 'only' and autonomous; if it was to represent what people who haven't theorized, believe about themselves. Read Matt's post to get the full picture.

PS, I haven't spotted any blatant 'hostility' and I haven't stated my position in concrete terms but tried to show the problems with some positions that could be taken by others (I may have failed but that was not my intention).
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:32 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5250082)
Quote:
...why are you guessing there is no "self."

But Frank, what did I say that might lead you to that conclusion


I did not say you said it, Dale...I said igm said it.

I was questioning the wording of your question to him.

Fact is, it is almost certain that igm is GUESSING that there is no self. I was just wondering why your question did not take that into account.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Nobody has answered my question about religions and gods.
Cis to save us the trouble of scrolling back I wonder if you might repeat that very q, perhaps in summary form, or provide a link

Thanks
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:37 pm
@Berty McJock,
Are you sure the 'self' can know itself? Can the eye see itself?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:40 pm
@MattDavis,
MattDavis wrote:


I make the ASSUMPTION that consciousness requires self-reference.


I'm still reflecting... but do you believe this 'might' be the weakness in your argument?
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
in believing in itself the Self has come to believe in something that cannot be proven too, but is belief not a part of the Self? a manifestation of Self as it were.
i don't see how it's an oxymoron. whether or not god exists, and whether or not you believe in him is largely irrelevant, as long as you believe in yourself, however you believe it, and whatever you believe about it, you are fundamentally aware of yourself. ergo, Self exists.

and if it doesnt exist, and it is an oxymoron, then we have a paradox, because i think so.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:45 pm
@dalehileman,
From the previous page.
Quote:
I believe there are levels of "self awareness," but what we believe and perceive are not always objective truths.

For example, look at all the humanity who believes in a god. That's part and parcel of the individual's existence and self awareness. Self awareness can be misleading and subjective, and not necessarily factual or true.

How many gods do humans believe in? Or, how many religions are there with adherents?

Are they all right or all wrong?


So what does "self-aware" really mean?
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:49 pm
@igm,
Quote:
Are you sure the 'self' can know itself? Can the eye see itself?


perhaps not, but does it need to know itself, or simply be awareof itself to exist.
eyes can be blind, the other senses become more powerful.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2013 01:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Fact is, it is almost certain that igm is GUESSING that there is no self. I was just wondering why your question did not take that into account.

Why is/might this be disinformation? I've 'never' said that there is no self. I asked for someone to prove to me that there is one... nothing more.

I find you disruptive Frank... why is that?
 

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