Where is the self? How can dualism stand if it's just a fiction?

@fresco,

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Frank to tell us how those fermions "know" or maybe they are just guessing !

I have no idea.

Actually, I've been talking about human beings.

If there are any fermions posting here, I apologize.

As for Pauli's Exclusion Principle...I wonder if it will stand the test of time.

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@cicerone imposter,

Yes. That study is in part related to the classic Harlow maternal deprivation studies in primates.

In general it is the claim of "second order cognitive scientists" that cognition not located in the brain, and the brain does not operate on "information processing principles" like a computer. The brain may be necessary for cognition but is not sufficient to account for it. Indeed, "cognition" can involve the whole body, and even the social context in which an individual operates. Attempts by reductionist neuroscientists at isomorphisms with mechanics have been scathingly equated for example to " correlating knee inflammation with belief in the power of prayer".

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@fresco,

Guessing ferminions? Laughing

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We have a choice when examining the 'big questions':

1. Think that everything is a guess either way.

2. Think that having examined all the possibilities one decides to move forward based on what seems to be the most likely or what gives the best outcome for the examiner. Having moved forward one continues to examine all the possibilities from this new perspective etc. etc.

Without moving forward in this way then one only gets to scratch the surface of understanding the 'big questions' e.g. if one ties 7 knots in a piece of rope then one cannot undo the first knot without first undoing 'in order' the other six.

If we are confused about the 'big questions' we need to undo our confusion step by step.

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@igm,

Quote:

We have a choice when examining the 'big questions':

1. Think that everything is a guess either way.

2. Think that having examined all the possibilities one decides to move forward based on what seems to be the most likely or what gives the best outcome for the examiner. Having moved forward one continues to examine all the possibilities from this new perspective etc. etc.

Without moving forward in this way then one only gets to scratch the surface of understanding the 'big questions' e.g. if one ties 7 knots in a piece of rope then one cannot undo the first knot without first undoing 'in order' the other six.

If we are confused about the 'big questions' we need to undo our confusion step by step.

With all the respect in the world, igm, that #1 up above is such a poor example of logic that it actually caused me to laugh out-loud when I read it.

When examining the big questions…it is not ever necessary to suppose that EVERYTHING is a guess either way. The only things you really have to guess about…are the items and issues about which you do not know…and have no way of finding out for sure.

THAT IS WHAT WE ALL DO…including me. When I do not know something…and it is necessary…I make a guess.

I CALL MY GUESSES…GUESSES.

Sometimes I am able to do the evaluating you mentioned up above…and I make estimations.

I CALL MY ESTIMATIONS…ESTIMATIONS.

Then I sorta proceed along the path you mentioned when you got out of the silly mode.

On some questions, by the way, I do not see enough reasonable, unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess or estimate…and for the most part I just don’t do so in a formal way. I do not, for instance, see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess that there are gods--or that there are no gods; that the only universe is the one I observe—or if there are others; if duality prevails or if the world is a non-duality REALITY.

I just go on living life as best I can without guessing about those things.

But if I were to guess about them…I would acknowledge that I was guessing.

Thanks for the laugh. A good laugh in the morning almost always leads to a decent day, so I am going to guess that today will be fun.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
We have a choice when examining the 'big questions':

1. Think that everything is a guess either way.

With all the respect in the world, igm, that #1 up above is such a poor example of logic that it actually caused me to laugh out-loud when I read it.

On the 'big questions' I had you in mind for #1 and for the rest of us I had #2 I'm glad you could see the funny side Laughing

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@igm,

Quote:

On the 'big questions' I had you in mind for #1 and for the rest of us I had #2 I'm glad you could see the funny side

My guess was exactly that...which was the reason I responded.

It was, of course, a complete misrepresentation of my position...as I explained...and have explained before...and before that...and before that.

But it was funny...and I enjoy humor no matter what.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, I agree with you (assuming I understand you) that virtually all our philosophical thinking is speculative. We are building models of what might be the case (Reality?) even though we are not positing testable (or falsifiable) hypotheses. I suspect most of the resistance you receive has to do with your choice of the term GUESS. In my case, at least, I think of guessing, not so much as philsophical speculation but, as "choosing blindly" (almost like flipping a coin) between a few clear options, two in the case of theism versus atheism. As I've told you before , that looks to me as if one were choosing simply between a 50% positive and 50% negative outcome--i.e., there simply is or there simply isn't a God. To me that's a false circumstance. I see no reason at all to take the God "option" seriously, not a chance, especially not a 50% chance.

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5308021)
Frank, I agree with you (assuming I understand you) that virtually all our philosophical thinking is speculative. We are building models of what might be the case (Reality?) even though we are not positing testable (or falsifiable) hypotheses. I suspect most of the resistance you receive has to do with your choice of the term GUESS. In my case, at least, I think of guessing, not so much as philsophical speculation but, as "choosing blindly" between a few clear options, two in the case of theism versus atheism. As I've told you before , that looks to me as if one were choosing simply between a 50% positive and 50% negative outcome--i.e., there simply is or there simply isn't a God. To me that's a false circumstance. I see no reason at all to take the God "option" seriously, not a chance, especially not a 50% chance.

I appreciate your comments, JL.

You do understand that there are reasonable, intelligent, sincere individuals alive and past...who feel the no-God option is an absurdity...and that the GOD option is almost a certainty.

Frankly, I think the people who think that way...or who think the way you are suggesting...are way, way off-base.

So...as far as I am concerned, any "speculation" about the existence or non-existence of gods...is a PURE, BLIND GUESS.

Where do we go from there?

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@Frank Apisa,

I appreciate your comments, Frank.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Where do we go from there?

That is a fair question. Do we just try to answer the question based upon our own ability and reasoning? Or, do we take in all the knowledge available, accept it or not based upon some kind of decision process, and come to a conclusion? Or, do we simply flip a coin, a guess? I'd say very few people are willing to flip a coin. Would you equate the reasoning and decision process equivalent to the coin flip?

What about people who have had some kind of religious experience? Their decision is based upon much more that a guess. Even though we may discount their 'facts' but clearly to them they are very real.

Bottom line here is many people, maybe not all, do much more than guess. I think dismissing their resulting decision as a guess falls short of the process they may have went through.

Now, you may have gone through this process and not been able to reach a conclusion, or have reached the conclusion that you 'do not know', which I accept as a reasonable result.

The fact that others cannot convince you to come to the same conclusion as them does not make their conclusion simply a guess, defined as a choice based upon chance.

I think part of what we are discussing here is your definition of 'guess'. Any conclusion that cannot be absolutely proven is simply a guess. I don't think that is the definition of guess, at least to me.

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@IRFRANK,

I suspect--and this is what Frank might consider a "guess"--that the broad philosophical perspectives* we take, e.g., relativism vs absolutism, objectivism vs. subjectivism, materialism vs. idealism, rationalism vs. mysticism, etc. etc. reflect our personalities more than anything else. It seems to me that we adopt these grand perspectives not because we have succumbed to irresistable proofs; we favor them almost unconsciously because of what appears to be their plausibility rather than their irrefutability. It's more of a matter of values and tastes rather than logic and proofs.

* these are far more than what I talked about above: guessing between binary options.

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@IRFRANK,

I guess Frank just guessed his way through life. LOL

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@cicerone imposter,

C.I., is that your guess? Very Happy

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@JLNobody,

Of coarse! What else can it be? We all live in a world of guesses.

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@JLNobody,

Yes I would agree some of us are concerned with exactness !... Wink

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@JLNobody,

JL
That certainly makes sense. And how well the 'beliefs' satisfy our needs. Really, our need to believe or not believe.

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It's more of a matter of values and tastes rather than logic and proofs.

Depends upon the individual. Maybe the need for logic and proofs is also a result of personality.

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@cicerone imposter,

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I guess Frank just guessed his way through life. LOL

Don't we all?

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@IRFRANK,

Not really; some have accomplished quite a bit during their lives. They worked hard, and "planned" it that way!

If they lived on "guesses," they wouldn't have had any direction. 100% guesses in any person's life is not realistic.

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@IRFRANK,

Are all your posts on a2k guesses?

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Where is the self? How can dualism stand if it's just a fiction?

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