31
   

Who doesn't back gay marriage?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 04:11 pm
@JLNobody,
Nope, JL. Not even in a pro forma way.

We are a couple...no marriage of any kind. In fact, we have overtly stated that we are not married...just a couple who have decided to share life for as long as both of us are alive.

She's 19 years younger than I. I suspect she will be living without me for a while after I am gone. I hope her life will be as happy then as it is now.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 05:57 pm
@Berty McJock,
Quote:
but like i say, it's fine for those who want it.


It's a question of whether it is fine for society as a whole. Playing around with narcissistic nonsense in a society where marriage underpins our whole way of life, marriage between one man and one woman, is not the same as playing around with narcissistic nonsense when narcissistic nonsense is all there is.

You guys have simply become carried away with an inordinate sense of self importance. The fundamental heresy. A misogynist's charter.
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 06:09 pm
@spendius,
but that's exactly it though.

Quote:
in a society where marriage underpins our whole way of life,


why does it have to?

and if it does, why should it be exclusive to

Quote:
marriage between one man and one woman
?

i don't have an inordinate sense of self importance, or i'm not trying to. seriously, i'm sorry if it comes across that way, i just don't understand why either of these need to be the case.

i know this statement will offend, but i dont know how to put it inoffensively. i don't wish to offend, but i think religion has a lot to answer for.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 06:13 pm
@Berty McJock,
It sure does Berty. Where would you be without it eh?
Berty McJock
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 06:28 pm
@spendius,
hehehe i really do think i've said enough here now.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 06:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
As far as I'm concerned that is the essence of marriage. I wish you continued what you have.
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 06:42 pm
@JLNobody,
I can't imagine why one would prefer that all gay men and women be single. I certainly wouldn't want all heterosexuals to be running around single; we have enough social disorder and STDs as it is.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 10:44 pm
@JLNobody,
Many for religious reasons - and among those opposed to gay marriage, some are opposed purely to the use of the word 'marriage' (rather than the concept)

Then there are some legal issues - there are those that aren't opposed to gay marriage, but are opposed to married gay couples adopting children...which could then becomes a legal issue regarding the word 'marriage'.

I can't think of any other issues.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 11:30 pm
@vikorr,
I can think of a number of issues--I mispoke--but I can't think of any valid issues.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 01:48 am
I'm not in any way opposed to civil unions among homosexuals, but I do believe there are serious and meaningful distinctions to be made between such unions and the marriage of a man and a woman.

In the first place the state and our society have a serious interest in maintaining our population, and avoiding the demographic collapses that are already very seriously damaging European economies and their social welfare structures. Our birth rates are also falling fast, and we will soon enough be facing the problems now afflicting Europe (including Russia), Japan and several other nations.

While homosexual unions do occasionally involve children, usually as a result of artificial insemnation or from surrogates, the number is insignificant compared to marriages of men and women. We have a number of economic benefits available to those who produce and rear the next generation, ranging from public schools, various tax breaks and other services, whose value has been declining over the past decades - along with our birth rate. Moreover our military operates some fairly expensive benefits available only to married members - these are primarily for the housing and support of their families and children. All of this is a zero sum game in that making these benafits available to those who will not produce children, inexorably reduces their future availability for those who do.

In addition we as a nation have been facing a rapid in the percentage of children born out of wedlock, and a probably associated rise in adverse social outcomes associated with poor upbringing and parental care. We have ample economic and social data indicating that such social and economic incentives do influence behavior and the choices people make. The social and economic consequences of erasing the distinction between marriage and unions of homosexuals will likely provide harmful additional disincentives, both economic and social, for marriage generally, at a time when we clearly need the opposite.

I'm not opposed to any provision for celebrating and legally recognizing unions of homosexuals, and even for certifing the status of those who raise children to entitle them to the associated exonom ic benefits as a result.
However, I am opposed to simply making such unions the social and legal equivalent of marriage, for the reasons outlined above.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 02:14 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
In the first place the state and our society have a serious interest in maintaining our population
errr...The ceremony of marriage would have no affect whatsoever on the population...gay people aren't, without marriage, suddenly going to go and have babies - they're gay. If your point was the financial issues...you have a number of contradicting issues in your post.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 04:40 am
@vikorr,
In the interest of a full debate it would be useful if you stated what the "contradicting issues" are which you detect in George's post.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 06:02 am
Marriage has always served a useful function in society as a means of transferring and/or securing rights in property. This is why, until as recently as the early 20th century, the ruling classes of European societies did not concern themselves with whether or not child-bearing couples were married. The religious bullies might have cared, but not anyone in a position of power. In his book The Classic Slum: Salford Life in the First Quarter of the Century, 1973, Robert Roberts said that about 80% of working class, child-bearing couples in England were not married. (The figure i give is not exact, it's been decades since i read the book.) Those people had no property of sufficient value that the power elites cared whether or not they were married.

All comments about divorce and the misery of married couples taken aside, there are very good reasons for homosexual couples to marry. Marriage secures rights in property, and it secures spousal rights to employment or government benefits. It also secures official "compassion"--the life partners of homosexuals have often been denied access to their loved ones who are in hospital because they are not blood relatives of the patient. Child care and child visitation rights have also been denied the members of such couples when they are no longer together. "Gay marriage" is a good idea, no matter what one may allege about the faults of the institution.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 07:54 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
In the first place the state and our society have a serious interest in maintaining our population, and avoiding the demographic collapses that are already very seriously damaging European economies and their social welfare structures. Our birth rates are also falling fast, and we will soon enough be facing the problems now afflicting Europe (including Russia), Japan and several other nations.


C'mon, George...marriage has as little to do with "maintaining your population" as do storks.

Quote:
In addition we as a nation have been facing a rapid in the percentage of children born out of wedlock, and a probably associated rise in adverse social outcomes associated with poor upbringing and parental care.


George, are you actually suggesting that "being married" makes one a better parent? Where does that come from? From what in the marriage ceremony is this power derived? Or does it have something to do with the marriage certificate?

Quote:
I'm not opposed to any provision for celebrating and legally recognizing unions of homosexuals, and even for certifing the status of those who raise children to entitle them to the associated exonom ic benefits as a result.
However, I am opposed to simply making such unions the social and legal equivalent of marriage, for the reasons outlined above.


It is obvious the reasons you outlined are not the reason you arrive at this conclusion, George...the reasons you outlines are an attempt to justify the conclusion you want to be justified.

Re-think your position.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 12:45 pm
@Setanta,
Yes--but "civil partnership" avails of all those rights if legislated for.

It is the insistence on the use of the term "marriage" to dignify or to villify, as the case may be, a homosexual relationship which is the bone of the contention.

Like Theocritus, and many another in a long and much esteemed tradition, your writings, when shaken, stirred, strained, boiled dry, and examined under an eyeglass, add up to not much more than "sometimes it rains and sometimes the sun shines" or occasionally, as a variant, "sometimes it pisses it down" or somesuch. "Snows" for example.

But what are we to think about an institution with the eminence of the British House of Commons, which has ordered the fate of millions of souls in peace and in war, deigning to spend time, exceedingly expensive time, on such sordid matters as these which have been foisted upon the nation by a vociferous minority taking advantage of Media's desperate need to salivate and slurp over fumblings in underpants, and other activities which no respectable person would allow the imagination to contemplate, and to justify the life-styles of those members of the minority who have managed, mysteriously, to penetrate to its very heart, if Media could be said to have such an organ.

And taking advantage also of a significant concession having been made at a point in history when such a concession was inevitable. As if the one concession justifies clamouring for more and which, if granted, will lead to even more demands such as uni-sex toilets and equal opportunity brothels and chaps turning up to view the golf championship in clothes something of the genre of Lola's previous avatar. Or excavation equipment operatives turning up in her present one.

Why should actors, curates of the C of E and tailor's assistants have all the fun?



0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 12:55 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

George, are you actually suggesting that "being married" makes one a better parent? Where does that come from? From what in the marriage ceremony is this power derived? Or does it have something to do with the marriage certificate?


Marriage allows two people to see themselves as a team in raising children. If my wife and I have $80k jobs in Boston, and I get offered $200k to work in Denver, the fact that she's married to me gives her the financial security she needs to know she can quit and accompany me in the move to Denver. I can't suddenly abandon her; we're married. If we weren't married in that situation, she might rather stay in Boston than follow me to Denver. That could tear the relationship apart.

I support same-sex marriage, because I think same-sex couples deserve the same glue that exists for straight couples.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 01:37 pm
@Kolyo,
Quote:
Marriage allows two people to see themselves as a team in raising children.


Is this an indication that marriage hinders the thinking process?

Quote:
I support same-sex marriage, because I think same-sex couples deserve the same glue that exists for straight couples.


I think it's kinda sad that relationships need this type of glue.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 02:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

It is obvious the reasons you outlined are not the reason you arrive at this conclusion, George...the reasons you outlines are an attempt to justify the conclusion you want to be justified.

Re-think your position.

I provided a rational basis for my preferences in this matter. You have no real basis for your absurd claim that you somehow know my "real" thoughts on this matter. Perhaps you have some unique abilities in this area. If so how/when did you acquire this remarkable ability?
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 02:42 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5248990)
Frank Apisa wrote:

It is obvious the reasons you outlined are not the reason you arrive at this conclusion, George...the reasons you outlines are an attempt to justify the conclusion you want to be justified.

Re-think your position.


I provided a rational basis for my preferences in this matter. You have no real basis for your absurd claim that you somehow know my "real" thoughts on this matter. Perhaps you have some unique abilities in this area. If so how/when did you acquire this remarkable ability?


Your comments hardly constitute a "rational basis" for your preferences, George. In fact, they are not even rational.

Being married, as has been pointed out by a couple of people, is really not necessary to the procreation process. And being married does not truly impact on the ability of a person to be a good parent.

The entire of your post seemed to me to be a rationalization of your position…and not the true reason you arrived at the position.

My comment that I thought it to be rationalization is an opinion. I have no unique abilities in this area...my nonsense detector is about average, but I doubt one needs a particularly sensitive nonsense detector to see your comments as rationalization.
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2013 04:11 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Well said, Frank.
 

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