Who are the proper subjects of moral consideration?

@reasoning logic,

That reply somewhat unprofessional of you.

You could have provided a link to an NPR interview which goes over the same concepts as the video.
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/24/159998668/david-eagleman-gets-inside-our-heads

And more reading on similar subject matter in the video by the same man:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-brain-on-trial/308520/

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

MattDavis wrote:

Quote:
I think we should try and extend moral consideration to everyone and if we can succeed at doing that then we could possibly use more time toward other nonhuman things.

I totally agree with that.
From my personal experience I haven't noticed, however, that it diverts any significant amount of my time or effort to be vegan. In many ways I feel as though it has made me better able to empathize with fellow humans.
After all if you are able to feel some empathy for a snake, how hard could it be to empathize with even a psychopath?

I agree both with you, Matt, and with reasoning logic. I also am (mostly) a vegan, and am (lately) from Chicago. Empathy is built into the normal human brain by way of mirror-neurons. I stress the word "normal" because the callous, the self-centered, the narrowly-self-interested (in contrast with those who have enlightened self-interest), the egoists, the narcissists who tend to be selfish, the nihilists, etc. {many of whom - ironically - often post at Forums dedicated to "ethics"}, etc., as well as the psychopaths and sociopaths have brain damage ...some rather minor and the latter rather major. Some folks have an obssesive-compulsive disorder that takes the form of hoarding (money) and this is commonly known as "greed." Their brain is not fully normal, in the sense of having the capacity to express empathy, sensitivity, and intense caring about the human individual. Their priorities are upside down: in other words, they don't know values - they have a distorted sense of value.

See the essays and dialogs, which you may google, by M.C. Katz for further details.

1 Reply

@aspvenom,

Quote:

I don't see how one can determine if an infantile or a baby has a psychopathic personality, so isn't your question pertinent to ask?

I did not say that you would know at infancy but how would you respond to your own child who is emotionally sterile because of autism or sociopathy?

Do you not think that there could be a possibility of a child being born sociopathic? If this is a possibility would you not want the best for her/him even if you had to protect yourself and others against his/her actions?

Quote:

I sense you're trying to force me to be empathetic towards a sociopath. If that was your intentions, your loaded question has failed miserably.

I am not trying to force you into anything.

Quote:

Since you've show interest in sociopaths for sometime here in a2k, you might want to check out a scientific source, and reformulate your initial thoughts aimed at me, or placing empathetic individuals in the same classification as a sociopath for that matter.

Do you find it wrong of me to find value in people like you?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

I did not say that you would know at infancy but how would you respond to your own child who is emotionally sterile because of autism or sociopathy?

Do you not think that there could be a possibility of a child being born sociopathic? If this is a possibility would you not want the best for her/him even if you had to protect yourself and others against his/her actions?

My reasoning abilities would over ride my empathetic response to find a suitable institution if I ever have such an offspring and find out that such an offspring is an extreme sociopath as s/he matures, for the best interest of everyone.

reasoning logic wrote:

I am not trying to force you into anything.

I only assumed this because you asked me a loaded question.

reasoning logic wrote:

Do you find it wrong of me to find value in people like you?

I just wanted to inform you that I'm not naive enough to fall for a loaded question.
Anyway, clarify please on this matter. What are your thoughts on empathetic individuals.
Can't an empathetic individuals act and do what a sociopath or a psychopath will? Can you really be in the same classification of "they just are who they are?
Can't social pressures and experiences lead a normal human to follow the footsteps of a sociopath?
Can't science advance to a level where surgery or controlled surgical trauma fix a sociopath?
Don't give up on the sociopaths now. Laughing

1 Reply

@aspvenom,

What did you learn from the npr and atlantic article about morals - as we have been discussing the subject?

Any clues?

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@cicerone imposter,

Egleman wrote,

Quote:

"most of what we do and think and feel is not under our conscious control."

Is that how Mr Egleman earned his PhD in Neuroscience? Just another miracle, I guess. His mother made him do it. Mr. Green

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

The 30 or few so minutes of video doesn't do justice to the such subject, but nothing new. Since I started taking bio classes in highschool, it's pretty much a given that "You are your brain." Now that's different than saying "they just are who they are" which RL was going on about.
With the statement that "You are your brain", there's also an observed element in the presentation that also needs some attention; the people who suffered altered brain states through chemistry and physical influences (tumors and trauma with the brain tissue), were able to recognize the influences of those external conditions and had and remarked on their own changed behaviors. There is a memory of why decisions are made and the victims of their own altered biology notice this.
One thing, that I am curious about is whether any ones faith , or religion has ever been changed by a brain injury (I mean devoted types like Buddhist Monks , Rabbis, hardcore atheists, etc).

3 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

He's not the first one to think that up. Check out Freudian Iceberg theory of Id, ego and super-ego.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/psychology/freuds_model.jpg

1 Reply

@aspvenom,

I wonder who he credits for earning his PhD in Neuroscience? His id?

1 Reply

@aspvenom,

Quote:

The 30 or few so minutes of video doesn't do justice to the such subject, but nothing new. Since I started taking bio classes in highschool, it's pretty much a given that "You are your brain."

I take it that you find this to be a joking matter as if you understand the brain better than someone who teaches neuroscience and surgery, do you also find yourself to be more advanced than the person who may remove a tumor from your brain to be less informed than you?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Although it is a good idea to keep a healthy level of skepticism. It's interesting to see what neuroscience and the discoveries by neuro-scientists has to offer in really understand the human brain. I'm still waiting for other research findings that correlate with Engleman.
All I'm seeing is that Engleman is not interested in any systematic review of the unconscious factors that influence our decisions, but is merely interested in presenting flashy examples.
Until another scientists or Engleman explain more than this drivel of unspecified emergent property, all I'm seeing from him is hot air.

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@aspvenom,

Quote:

Until another scientists or Engleman explain more than his drivel of unspecified emergent property, all I'm seeing from him is hot air.

Are you suggesting that mankind should accept you ignorance rather than all the work that has been documented by those who specialize in the field of neuroscience? I find this to be to be the opposite of mentally advanced if this is the case you are promoting. Cool

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

How can that be? You can't even explain Eagleman's position on anything!
When questioned, all you present are videos. You are one confused joker.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
The 30 or few so minutes of video doesn't do justice to the such subject, but nothing new. Since I started taking bio classes in highschool, it's pretty much a given that "You are your brain."

I take it that you find this to be a joking matter as if you understand the brain better than someone who teaches neuroscience and surgery, do you also find yourself to be more advanced than the person who may remove a tumor from your brain to be less informed than you?

How can what I just said be taken as a joking matter. First of all you don't know my major I'm in right now. But that's besides the point. It doesn't take a scientist to know that this 30 minute video created for the laymen can cover the depth of neuroscience. My first week of biological psychology that I took a semester ago covered more than this video did. Results of science must be repeatable, testable and confirmable by other scientists, not just Engleman. Your grand jumping to conclusion trait is not an honorable nor a welcomed trait when discussing serious matters. It cuts of the flow. Dammit it's like throwing cold water when someone's sleeping. Stop it. >:^(

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

See the tactic he has utilized with just a piece of criticism I aimed at Engleman. Just admire the grand walls of ignorance that has been resurrected in such a little time.
I'm not gonna spend wasting my time on this foul defensive joker.

1 Reply

@aspvenom,

Quote:

Your grand jumping to conclusion trait is not an honorable nor a welcomed trait when discussing serious matters. It cuts of the flow. Dammit it's like throwing cold water when someone's sleeping. Stop it.

Is this your way of saying that you do not like the neuroscientists that I have shared with you because of their ability to demonstrate your sociopathic nature?

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@aspvenom,

I actually have this joker on Ignore, but I respond once-in-awhile to those I have on Ignore based on what they post on a thread.

I've always maintained from very early in my life that our lives are the product of our genes and our environment. I doubt very much any neuroscientist can improve on this simple thesis.

Reasoning Logic has no logic; that's what In concluded long ago when I put him on Ignore.

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@deepthot,

Thank you for the response Very Happy

Of what I have read so far, which is not much beyond RL's first link,
what I find most the most value in is this:

Demonstrating a way in which by starting at a value of strictly (self interest), the other values of (interests outside the self) can be derived.
In a sense, reasoning from sociopathy to empathy.
This reasoning will (I think) hinge upon the strength of the psychological evidence regarding the outcomes, looked at from a self-interested perspective.
In other words answering whether being empathetic is more or less valuable than being sociopathic (from the perspective of a highly reasoned sociopath).
My arm-chair analysis is that, there is some strong psychological evidence that empathy is an effective strategy for a sociopath.

Thanks again.

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

Quote:

Demonstrating a way in which by starting at a value of strictly (self interest), the other values of (interests outside the self) can be derived.
In a sense, reasoning from sociopathy to empathy.
This reasoning will (I think) hinge upon the strength of the psychological evidence regarding the outcomes, looked at from a self-interested perspective.
In other words answering whether being empathetic is more or less valuable than being sociopathic (from the perspective of a highly reasoned sociopath).
My arm-chair analysis is that, there is some strong psychological evidence that empathy is an effective strategy for a sociopath.

If you do not mind could you try and explain what you said in a layman's term that your grandmother might understand? better yet please go into more depth as if your grandmother was as challenged as I am. Wink

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

If you do not mind could you try and explain what you said in a layman's terms?

I can try. I appreciate the grandmother reference, fine memory. Very Happy

Layman's terms (I think/I hope):

Assume that all that matters is your own well-being (happiness/satisfaction).
Assume that there is no other value other than this.
The psychological evidence seems to suggest that being empathetic creates the best strategy to reach that goal.
Empathetic meaning having a concern for things/persons other than yourself.
Empathic thus meaning that you place a value on things other than yourself.
We started by assuming the only value was within the 'self', and arrived at value outside of the 'self'.
We have shown that empathy is a true value for selfishness.

This reconciles selfishness with empathy.
This is how you might convince a sociopath to behave with empathy.

2 Replies

Who are the proper subjects of moral consideration?

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