9
   

Who are the proper subjects of moral consideration?

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 08:41 am
@MattDavis,
Quote:
After all if you are able to feel some empathy for a snake, how hard could it be to empathize with even a psychopath?


This is true.

I can empathize with a sociopath but I am still careful to not get bitten. From studying neuroscience I see sociopaths similar as I see empathic people "neither one of them mean to be the way they are "they just are who they are.
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 08:43 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
After all if you are able to feel some empathy for a snake, how hard could it be to empathize with even a psychopath?


This is true.

I can empathize with a sociopath but I am still careful to not get bitten. From studying neuroscience I see sociopaths similar as I see empathic people "neither one of them mean to be the way they are "they just are who they are.

??
You place empathetic individuals in the same classification as a sociopath?
If you do you have a pretty twisted sense of moral philosophy then.
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 08:52 am
@MattDavis,
Quote:
From my personal experience I haven't noticed, however, that it diverts any significant amount of my time or effort to be vegan. In many ways I feel as though it has made me better able to empathize with fellow humans.


I have a friend I think you would like, he is a PhD and ethics is of a strong interest to him "he is also a vegan.

http://www.hartmaninstitute.org/Portals/0/Documents/Katz,HOWTHESCIENCEOFETHICS...pdf
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 08:57 am
@reasoning logic,
Yeah about this Katz guy. We talked about him and with him in another thread. So how is his "thesis" coming along. Or is he just all talk?

He goes by deepthot here right?

Be warned Matt. You may find his ideas a little too good to be true. I'm approaching this guy with skepticism until sufficient evidence is shown.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:03 am
@aspvenom,
Quote:
Yeah about this Katz guy. We talked about him and with him in another thread. So how is his "thesis" coming along. Or is he just all talk?


I think he has brought forward a lot to think about and if you have an interest you could read some of his work.
MattDavis
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:48 am
@reasoning logic,
That paper was totally worth reading.
I think he has in it a way to reconcile utilitarianism with virtues, value, and ahimsa.
Thank you. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:06 am
@reasoning logic,
I think from the outline this looks pretty solid, but I am no PhD in philosophy so surely a poor judge of a full dissertation.
What I would find valuable is a linking to psychological evidence of the S<E<I hierarchy regarding motivation studies.
I would also seriously consider using the terminology "dispose value" or "dis", rather than "transpose value" or "tran". I think this is easier to visualize and less likely to become associated with positive connotations that may be associated with "trans-", as in transformation, transcend, etc.
0 Replies
 
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:12 am
What rl posted was not a dissertation. I've just finished reading it as well.
By Katz is also the work named "unified theory of ethics"
If you're interested: http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/A%20UNIFIED%20THEORY%20OF%20ETHICS.pdf

If you're done reading it, we can discuss it. I have in mind a few criticism regarding such a piece of work.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:23 am
@aspvenom,
I'm in agreement with you - having read only the first few pages, they're already in a man's no-land trying to define "good" in terms of a chair.

That's elementary, dear Watson! If one looks at all the chairs that are available for purchase, a "good" chair for one consumer is not necessarily a good chair for another consumer. They are all subjective "goods." They might even be "bad" for many.

They've lost me before they even began!
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:28 am
@aspvenom,
Quote:
If you're done reading it, we can discuss it. I have in mind a few criticism regarding such a piece of work.


Share your criticism this is how I learn.
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
You've only begun and you have already found a criticism which was at the forefront in my list of criticism.
His attempt at the formalization of a human's approach to morality is very forced, and this shouldn't be, seeing that morality cannot be forced in any way whatsoever because an individual submits voluntarily to a set of moral beliefs on their own. And it is an undecidable problem to begin with so there is no answer provided by Katz for the general case. And I'm even finding a hard time thinking of such an answer to ethical problems with this "unification" because every individual is special, unique, with his or her own answers.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:34 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
That's elementary, dear Watson! If one looks at all the chairs that are available for purchase, a "good" chair for one consumer is not necessarily a good chair for another consumer. They are all subjective "goods." They might even be "bad" for many.


OK so you agree that it is subjective and so did they so what is the big deal was it to simple or you just have little interest in ethics?
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:35 am
@cicerone imposter,
As aspvenom points out this paper is not a dissertation.
I agree that an appeal to what looks like a Platonistic notion of ideals, is not a rigorous "proof" philosophically.
I don't take that to be the intent.
In a dissertation venue, I think the validity of the proposed, is going to rest ultimately upon an appeal to rational self-interest informed by psychological evidence for the results of assigning the value hierarchy (S<E<I).

I think that appeal can be made quite strongly.
I think the psychological evidence is quite strong already, especially in motivation studies.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:46 am
@MattDavis,
Quote:
In a dissertation venue, I think the validity of the proposed, is going to rest ultimately upon an appeal to rational self-interest informed by psychological evidence for the results of assigning the value hierarchy (S<E<I).


Dr Daniel Goldman was one of the many people who he referenced.

I think it would be up to us to validate anything we may wonder about.

http://danielgoleman.info/biography/
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:54 am
@reasoning logic,
Ok to begin let me start with observation of reality.
Observation of reality does not support an ideal world where everyone agrees with everyone, and everyone is satisfied where it is some sort of paradise on Eart, called "the good life." As such Dr. Katz' approach is therefore a only a theory (valid or not can be decided by others who have read it), and not scientific proof.
And because Dr. Katz intends for his ideal rationalised theory to become universal, it is no different than Communism, Nazism or other ideal rationalisation of social interaction. Katz can use strange attractors, and other complex equations to model these societies and recognize that societies are complex. But the fact of it is that it remains nevertheless, nothing more than a theory, not scientific proof. And if successful and adopted by the masses, this ideal rationalised theory that he calls the "good life" will take on a whole other role than the one he predicts or intends. Does Dr. Katz realize this will become a dogma, just like the other dogmas? Marxism too looked good on paper when Marx wrote at the time of the Communes Revolt in Paris. Marxist societies look kind of different you see. It is inevitable: every society has its Gods and if an ideal rationalized theory becomes so succesfull as Dr. Katz intends it to become, then the theory will become the new dogma, and bring in the new gang of divinities. If this theory has with its own potential success to turn it into a man made dogma, and misinterpretations, just as happened with every other rationalised and ideal theory it could lead easily to violence.
And don't think I'm done, there is more criticism in my pocket to hand out.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 11:06 am
@reasoning logic,
Sorry if I was unclear.
I am basing this speculation upon reading the first paper and nothing more.
My impression is very positive, upon this first evaluation.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 11:06 am
@aspvenom,
Not trying to make fun of you but the theory you put forward had me laughing.
You sure have a wild imagination. Laughing

I have to go to town but I will be back.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 11:07 am
@aspvenom,
Besides approaches to "organized" societies, it's impossible to create any one form that will be "followed" by everybody. Humans are not robots, and all societies are made up from too many personality variables. "Good and bad" are subjective descriptions, and no defition will fit the whole of society.

Theories are fine, but implementation is another thing all together; it's called "impossible."
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 11:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
Yes full acceptance of any ethical view would be impossible.
I don't know if this discards the importance of having a rigorous rational defense of a view, however.
I think to answer how necessary full adherence is we would need to look at the "desired effect" for the group.
How does a society behave in relation to the number of adherent to the view and the number of co-existing views.

0 Replies
 
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 11:31 am
@reasoning logic,
And I'm addressing his theory as a whole. I have doing a few research on this fellow with a theory holding a few grand misconceptions when you introduced him to me in another thread. I also came across one of his works called Living the Good life, which I've finished reading. http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/Living_The_Good_Lifef.pdf
Does your Doctor want his theory universalized or not?
If he does, then from historical perspective you should understand the consequences. It's not a wild imagination. And if you plan on your childish game of indirect mockery and insults consisting of a sentence or two instead of valid points and thoughts, I'll be more than glad to leave you to yourself.
 

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